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Latina Lista: News from the Latinx perspective > Causes > Social Justice > Blurring the line between patriotism and racism makes it hard for some to see the difference

Blurring the line between patriotism and racism makes it hard for some to see the difference

LatinaLista — The battle over immigration reform that Congress has forced onto Main Street USA has spun off a variety of unforeseen consequences: a negative perception of Hispanics, a hunt by private citizens for undocumented immigrants and a sincere confusion between patriotism and racism.

(Source: imungo.flickr)
Patriotism used to be something that most Americans didn’t wear on their sleeves, not even military personnel. It was just a silent pride understood that everyone who lived in this country was patriotic by virtue of them either choosing to live here or having been born here.
Yet, as the immigration battle wears on in towns across America, people, who think they are preserving the “American Way,” are damaging the essence of what this country has historically stood for with their constant attacks on Latino immigrants.
And when they’re called out for these racist views, because discrimination against another group of people who are ethnically diverse is a form of racism, these so-called defenders of the American Way can’t stomach such a strong label, but they have no problem villifying a whole group of people.


The latest incident is happening in a place where it’s safe to say it’s unsafe to be Hispanic — Patchogue , New York.
Patchogue is the site where the Ecuadorian immigrant, Marcelo Lucero, was murdered by seven students who attended Patchogue-Medford High School. The latest “racial war” is happening in the halls of the high school.
It seems in one particular hallway of the school four classes of ESL are being held next door to each other. Not for any particular reason other than it’s convenient for the students. It seems there are some people who don’t like that there are so many non-English-speakers grouped together. They want the classes to be broken up and scattered throughout the school.
These same people are complaining that the hallway is unsafe for white students. School personnel checked out the complaints and couldn’t find any truth to the allegation.
To top it off, a critic of school board had an even further demand:

At Monday’s meeting, North Patchogue resident and frequent school board critic Bill Pearson suggested the district get rid of ESL. The suggestions escalated into a shouting match, pitting Pearson against Superintendent Michael Mostow and board member Miguel Perez.
When Mostow called Pearson “a racist,” Pearson threatened a lawsuit if Mostow did not apologize. “Not to you, racist,” Mostow shouted back.
Pearson said he plans to contact a lawyer.

To suggest ridding these particular classes is a racist statement. The classes are not against the law so it can’t be argued that Pearson is upholding the “rule of law” because he isn’t.
He’s targeting one group of kids based on their ethnicity.
It’s not unusual that Pearson should be insulted at being called a racist. Most people who are advocating harsh measures against undocumented Latino immigrants don’t see themselves as racists but defenders of the American Way.
They just can’t see that the American Way has always been idealized as being an inclusive society that judged people’s immigrant status in the courts — and not in the streets or hallways of high schools.

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Comment(56)

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 17, 2008 at 9:23 pm

    How are patriotic Americans vilifying Latino immigrants? Are facts, vilifying? Like the fact that a good portion of them are here illegally and violated our immigration laws? Like the fact that some already have criminal backgrounds before they arrive here or some that commit crimes after they get here? Like some are stealing jobs from Americans? Like some are using stolen I.D. and SS numbers? Like some use our health, education and welfare system? How is the truth vilifying?
    Sorry, to disagree with you but it has NEVER been a sign of patriotism by virtue of being born here and living here. It goes a lot deeper than that.
    This country has always stood for the rule of law while still allowing LEGAL immigrants by the millions to come here. That policy hasn’t changed.
    Don’t use an occasional hate crime as an example of what the majority of Americans think, feel or do either. We will always have racist, nutcases in our midst and not just targeting Latinos either. But trying to claim that Latinos are some big target nowadays by the majority is ridiculous.

  • Avatar
    Irma
    December 18, 2008 at 9:52 am

    This country has always stood for the rule of the law?
    Why was there a need for a Civil Rights
    movement? American citizens were being treated like garbage and yet you say this
    country has always stood for the rule of the law?
    Sandra, you probably would have said the same thing then.
    An occassional hate crime is one too many.
    The last one in New York resulted the death of a LEGAL immigrant.
    Latinos are being targetted – and you are just in denial.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    December 18, 2008 at 10:43 am

    I’m so sorry to see that you’re pulling the race card, Marisa. Your ad hominem attacks only serve to reduce your credibility and that of the rest of the so-called advocates of illegal immigrants. Your can’t win on the merits of your case, just attack the characters of your opposition. That’s so, so, shameful.

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 18, 2008 at 11:35 am

    Sometimes it behooves us to remind people that hate crimes are also committed against Americans who are the true victims of racism and hate in our country.
    –Adrienne Shelly, was killed in a situation disguised to look like suicide. But what was really being hidden was the immigration status of the killer.
    “I was having a bad day,” illegal immigrant Diego Pillco, 19, allegedly told cops. “I didn’t mean to kill her. But I did kill her.”
    Pillco told detectives that he punched Shelly, 40, last Wednesday afternoon outside the Abingdon Square apartment she was using as an office after she yelled at him about the noise he was making while working in a vacant apartment below. […]
    After seeing she was unconscious and believing she was dead, Pillco claimed, he dragged Shelly into her apartment, wrapped a bed sheet around her neck and attached it to a shower rod in the bathroom to make it appear she had hanged herself, sources said.

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 18, 2008 at 11:39 am

    Here’s two more. Do you care about these Americans?
    —-It has never been easy to be a cop, but the presence today of millions of illegal aliens makes the job enormously more difficult and dangerous. That hazard is multiplied for police who work in a sanctuary city or state (see map), where they are prevented from asking about immigration status, knowledge which should be part of every officer’s toolbox. In such places, the criminal is given an edge and law enforcement suffers.
    We don’t know whether Houston’s sanctuary policy had a direct connection with the murder of Officer Rodney Johnson on Sept. 21, for example by making the city a more attractive place for the accused killer, illegal alien Juan Leonardo Quintero, to settle. We do know that the accused was previously deported in 1999 for sexual indecency with a child, so he may have wanted all the advantage he could get.
    Officer Johnson had stopped Quintero for speeding, found he didn’t have a license, then cuffed him and put him in the back of the squad car. Quintero somehow was able to draw a weapon which Johnson had missed, and then shot and killed the officer as he sat in the driver’s seat. Quintero was quickly caught and was arraigned a day following the crime.
    —-It is hard to fathom how anyone could bury an axe in the head of an innocent nine-year-old boy, but that was the unimaginable fate of Jordin Paulder of Fulton County, Georgia, on June 5. The killer was “Honduran native” Santos Benigno Cabrera Borjas.
    Three children were playing in the parking lot of the Chastain Apartments in Sandy Springs early Monday evening when a red car with a wobbly wheel drove through.
    Jordin Paulder, a 9-year-old boy with chubby cheeks, called out to the car’s passengers to tell them of the bad tire.
    Jordin didn’t mean to insult anybody, he just thought they should know, witnesses told police.
    But the car stopped. A man got out and slammed an ax into Jordin’s face. Emergency workers were afraid to remove the ax during the helicopter flight to Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta at Scottish Rite hospital, where Jordin died. [Boy, 9, hacked to death, 6/7/06, Atlanta

  • Avatar
    Challis
    December 18, 2008 at 2:14 pm

    unfortunately, I disagree with Sandra.
    I wish that it were true that Americans were not targeting Latinos, but that seems to be all too true.
    Because of the media and political spotlight on illegal immigration and Latinos specifically, I DO feel that there is a general feeling that Hispanics are being targeted.
    On the other hand, we see Christian groups and business folks banning together to keep these racist nutcases from passing legislation in our local governments, which may make citizens feel like they are being taken advantage of.
    Basically, what we have here is a problem that our federal government needs to address, and in the meantime, many of us would like to make sure that punitive measures against landowners, employers, and individuals are not passed in our communities. And that basic human decency is being observered at all times.

  • Avatar
    Porter M. Corn
    December 18, 2008 at 8:38 pm

    No Sandra, you’re wrong. These are not occasional hate crimes.
    With a hostile anti-immigrant campaign targeting Latinos, the number of hate crimes against Hispanics has increased by a more than 40 percent since 2003.
    More than 62 percent of crimes motivated by bias against ethnicity or national origin are committed against Hispanics.
    This is a very good, very midstream article that will enrage the anti-immigrant crowd.
    And the very ones that wear their patriotism on their sleeves, are the first to come forward and vilify those of us who do not agree with their position.

  • Avatar
    Scott Hong
    December 18, 2008 at 8:59 pm

    Illegal immigration benefits Latin Americans at 30 times the rate as non-Latin Americans, it discriminates based on race/ethnicity. See the data here: http://www.immigrantrightsfoundation.org/aboutamnesty.
    The US Government facilitates this discrimination by allowing Latin American illegal aliens to enter the US and stay at a much higher rate than non-Latin American illegal aliens, and does this at the request of Latino groups.
    Since as you say “discrimination against another group of people who are ethnically diverse is a form of racism”, the Latino groups who lobby for this discrimination are racists, as are you.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 19, 2008 at 8:15 am

    Irma,
    Yes this country has always been based on the rule of law. Quit comparing the plight of Black CITIZENS of the Civil Rights Movement to the illegal aliens of today. Even if a law needs changing, that doesn’t nullify the fact that we are a nation of laws.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 19, 2008 at 8:20 am

    Irma,
    Most illegals in this country are Latinos and many Latino citizens are aiding and abetting them, like yourself for example, and you are all up in arms that Latinos are being targeted? Use some common sense here will you.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 19, 2008 at 8:26 am

    Bravo Scott! You nailed it! But don’t expect them to admit it or to even care.

  • Avatar
    Scott Hong
    December 19, 2008 at 10:25 am

    Yes Sandra you are probably correct, they are proud to be racist, but you can always ask your elected officials why do THEY support this racism? They might not be so proud about it.

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 19, 2008 at 11:30 am

    For some it’s not enough just to disagree. They feel it necessary to conclude that the person with whom they disagree is evil. In third grade, we used to call someone “big nose”. In recent years patriotism has been frequently appealed to.
    Who can forget the Dixie Chicks? One of them expressed disagreement with the President. As a result they were called “unpatriotic” among other things. Some even declared that all three of them were deserving of eternal damnation. Hannity’s book used the word “evil” to describe liberalism. Coulter titled her book “Treason” to label those with whom she disagrees.
    With immigration, some hard-core paranoid radical anti-immigrant fanatics are not satisfied with merely disagreeing with someone. They feel the need to demonize their opponent. They describe illegal immigration as an “invasion”. The nation is under attack. Those that don’t bear arms, figuratively speaking, in this war are not patriotic.
    People are emotional, and we can’t expect that emotions be completely kept out of discussions. The problem is when this name-calling takes over the discussion at the expense of discussing the actual issues.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    December 19, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Not all Latinos are nutcakes like those liberal idiots in this blog. There are far more that are against illegal immigration than there are for it. It’s just that the vocal few advocates seem to get all the attention misrepresenting themselves as the leaders of the Latino community, when they are not. They are just big mouths without rational thought or valid arguments, spouting emotional drivel and demonizing their enemies. They’ve hijacked the issues from the moderates. They’re afraid of ad hominem attacks from the radicals, just as are many non-Hispanic Americans.

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 19, 2008 at 3:31 pm

    Challis said
    “I wish that it were true that Americans were not targeting Latinos, but that seems to be all too true”
    Challis, as of this date there are an estimated 38 million illegal aliens in our country, the vast majority of them HISPANIC. You are denying the obvious and the worn out victim card mentality is wearing very thin with legal Americans, of ALL nationalities.

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 19, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    Challis:
    “many of us would like to make sure that punitive measures against landowners, employers, and individuals are not passed in our communities.”
    What are you saying Challis? That the United States should NOT be allowed to enforce our own laws? Are you freakin kidding me?

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 20, 2008 at 8:42 am

    El Guapo,
    Here is where you aren’t making any sense. Law abiding Americans are being called racists by your side all the time. Being called racist for honoring our laws makes sense to you?
    Now take your side of the issue. You are advocating for the legalization of millions and millions of illegals from your ethnic group, in other words you want them rewarded for breaking our imigration laws and we dont’ agree we are called racists? Now who really are the racist ones in this issue?
    Here is another example of your side’s dishonesty and that is saying that we are anti-“immigrant”. That is false! We have no problem with legal immigrants. It is those in our country illegally that we are opposed to.
    Millions and millions of illegal aliens in our country is an unarmed invasion. You just don’t like the truth because you want to deny anything that tells it like it is so as to take away any guilt from the invaders themselves.
    I really have to laugh when you say that we are demonizing the opponent and name calling. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR SIDE DOES!!!! The difference is that our arguments are based on the rule of law and yours are based on ethnocentric racism while totally ignoring what is in the best interest of this country. We don’t take in immigrants based on their needs! We take in immigrants based on our needs and our best interests and that is how it should be. We already take in nearlly a million legal immigrants a year. How many is enough for you? Till our country’s poulation doubles or triples? If these illegals are such hard workers and such fine upstanding people, why don’t they stay in their own country and fix it?

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 20, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    First of all I have never advocated the legalization of any illegal from my ethnic group. Starting off by making false accusations is another example of how people tend to argue with their emotions rather than facts. In Sandra’s first statement addressed to me she makes a false accusation. What a way to start off a discussion!
    Sandra errs again by saying, “We have no problem with legal immigrants.” She doesn’t define “we”. She should really speak for herself. The fact is that there are plenty of people, too many if you ask me, who are anti-immigrant. Some are just plain anti-Hispanic. This has been documented.
    But in her comments Sandra makes a valid point. Calling someone racist, just like calling someone unpatriotic, is more of an emotional response and detracts from an intelligent discussion of the issues. And the fact that someone is racist doesn’t render their argument wrong. But whenever the name-calling starts it usually destroys any chance of a reasonable discussion of the issues. Try it sometime. Call someone a racist, and they will go on and on whining about having been called a racist. Even when you don’t call someone a racist, they still whine about it. For example, Sandra.
    And sorting through Sandra’s emotion-packed response there is a clue of what defines many anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic fanatics. “We don’t take in immigrants based on their needs! We take in immigrants based on our needs and our best interests and that is how it should be.” The anti-immigrant/anti-Hispanic fanatics are selfish. They’re looking out for their best interests and their best interests only. These people will exaggerate the adverse effects even to the point of spreading lies.

  • Avatar
    Texano78704
    December 20, 2008 at 1:26 pm

    Here is another example of your side’s dishonesty and that is saying that we are anti-“immigrant”. That is false! We have no problem with legal immigrants.
    Except, of course, when you see entire families of “immigrants” speaking exclusively Spanish all the time out in public.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 21, 2008 at 8:16 am

    Most of us object to certain human behaviors but that doesn’t make us anti-human, does it?

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 21, 2008 at 8:33 am

    El Guapo,
    The “we” is the majority of Americans, therefore “we” don’t object to “legal” immigrants. So quit crying about the minority that do or are racists.
    We all know what racism is, so if the shoe fits wear it. As the saying goes, those who scream racist the most and the loudest are the ones who are really the racists. The pro-illegal side of this issue is constantly calling Americans for the rule of law and the enforcement of our immigration laws, racists. I rest my case.
    So for any country to take in immigrants based on the national interest is “anti-immigrant” and selfish? LOL! Is it selfish for you to look out for your own family first? (within the law of course). Are you calling our country selfish when it takes in nearlly a million legal immigrants every year? Is it selfish to limit our population growth so that we can take care of our own ciitzens and legal immigrants in the way of natural resources, space, healthcare, education, etc. and limit the number we take in who lack an education and skills and import poverty? So you are for unlimited immigration even if it means committing national suicide? You truly are clueless, aren’t you?

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 21, 2008 at 12:10 pm

    El Guapo said:
    And sorting through Sandra’s emotion-packed response there is a clue of what defines many anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic fanatics. “We don’t take in immigrants based on their needs! We take in immigrants based on our needs and our best interests and that is how it should be.” The anti-immigrant/anti-Hispanic fanatics are selfish. They’re looking out for their best interests and their best interests only.”
    Your argument is asinine El Guapo. What is wrong with taking in immigrants based on the needs of the U.S.? Mexico has some very strong provisions about who they will and will not accept into their country. Their provisions make it implicitly clear they want ONLY immigrants who have something to offer their country. What is wrong with that? Why can Mexico have these strict provisions and we can’t? Oh and I know I will never get an answer to this and why is that? Because your side knows they are wrong, they are breaking our laws and do not care who enters our country in violation of our immigration laws as long as the majority of them are HISPANIC!!! America has always been proud to be a “melting pot.” A “melting pot” does not mean the majority in the country are just one ethnicity.

  • Avatar
    Challis
    December 22, 2008 at 12:23 pm

    Michaela-
    I am saying that our local government has many more important things to do than trying to uphold Federal law. I would certianly want them to be focusing on things like the horrible murders that you mentioned above (NOT hate crimes, by the way, just sensless murders that happened to be committed by non-Americans) and not wasting their valuable time by knocking on doors and checking immigration papers.

  • Avatar
    Challis
    December 22, 2008 at 12:35 pm

    So, I am actually NOT KIDDING, I DO believe that our local government has limited funds and manpower and it is my sincere hope that my local authorities aren’t being used to enforce laws that are for the Federal government to take care iof.
    That is why we have the government set up this way.
    So, if my house gets broken into, I want my local cops to be on it, not out on an illeagal alien hunt.

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 22, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Sandra asks: “Is it selfish for you to look out for your own family first?”
    Answer: yes.
    Michaela asks: “What is wrong with taking in immigrants based on the needs of the U.S.?”
    Answer: I don’t believe that there’s anything wrong with that in and of itself.
    Michaela also suggests that we copy some of Mexico’s policies. Evidently the she thinks the policies that Mexico has have served them so well that the United States should have the same policies. Hopefully the Obama administration will take note of such wisdom.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 23, 2008 at 9:02 am

    Challis,
    It is no big deal for local law enforcement during the course of enforcing any law to ask to see one’s I.D. That is done routinely anyway. If the I.D. is suspicious or no I.D. can produced all they have to do is detain them at the local jail till it can be cleared up. You make a big deal out of it for nothing. They do not knock on doors just to ask for papers either.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 23, 2008 at 9:08 am

    El Guapo, you really show your hypocricy with your claim that it is selfish to look out for one’s own family first (and I will add again that I said as long as it doesn’t circumvent our laws) and yet you don’t thhink it selfish that Latinos do just that by choosing their illegal counterparts over the laws and the rest of the citizenry of this country?

  • Avatar
    Texano78704
    December 23, 2008 at 11:00 am

    Most of us object to certain human behaviors but that doesn’t make us anti-human, does it?
    No, but it could mean you are a sociopath. I have never met a person that objected to that human behavior known as verbal communication.

  • Avatar
    Challis
    December 23, 2008 at 11:01 am

    I have no problem with ID being asked for in a routine traffic stop of domestic disturbance, that’s procedure.
    The laws that I am worried about are the ones like in Oklahoma where a homeowner could be punished for renting to an undocumented citizen.
    That really disturbs me, when each American is being asked to be homeland security.
    AND ‘DWL’ (driving while Latino) is kind of a joke, but it came from the actual happensatnce of police doing racial profiling. (that sucks when I have to feel almost guilty for not looking like a ‘typical Latina’)

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 23, 2008 at 5:16 pm

    Sandra illustrates another good example of what I was talking about. She presents an argument to show my hypocricy [sic]. So what? What does that accomplish? She’s shown that an anonymous person on the internet is a bad person. So what?
    But she does indirectly bring up a powerful point that a lot of people already know. It never ceases to amaze me how selfless many immigrants are. To risk your life to live in the shadows at any moment you could be arrested in a foreign land with a language you don’t understand. You sleep on a floor if you’re lucky enough. You work all day on your feet whether in construction, washing dishes or cleaning someone else’s mess. Then you send thousands of dollars home to support your family. The bravery and selflessness of immigrants is something that I aspire to emulate.

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 23, 2008 at 5:22 pm

    I know quite a few immigrants. One family I know in Honduras the oldest son left home to work in the city. He worked two jobs while going to school and supported his family. He paid for his little brother and little sisters to attend school.
    The next oldest was a female. She migrated to the United States and for the past 11 years has taken over from the oldest brother. She paid for the little sister to attend beauty school and for her little brother to get a degree in accounting. She also fixed up her mother’s house even putting a/c in one room.
    In that town you can tell which families have someone in the US just by the appearance of their homes. May God bless all of them.

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 23, 2008 at 7:31 pm

    El Guapo,
    I am sure that bank robbers take great risks also and give some of the money to their families. But so what? It is against the law! The end does not justify the means. If you think that law breakers are brave and to be admired then I pity you. A million sob stories will not sway me from honoring the laws of this country. While you go on about illegals having to sleep on the floor, there are probably a few Americans put out of work by an illegal and are sleeping in a ditch! Do you care, no!

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 24, 2008 at 4:00 am

    Who are these Americans lost their job to someone with a third grade education who can’t speak the language? All Americans were given a quality K-12 education at no cost to the student. In addition a myriad of opportunities for further education is offered from student loans, scholarships, grants, financial aid, even the military. Americans who are competing in the job market with undereducated illegal aliens are those who squandered those opportunities. I pity them.
    But I won’t hold someone else down to make it easier for some slacker to benefit.
    That’s another characteristic of the anti-immigration left. Anti-immigration fanatics wish to hold one group back thinking that it will benefit another group (their own).

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 24, 2008 at 9:50 am

    El Guapo,
    I am far right, not left.
    Why do you keep calling me and other law abiding Americans, anti-“immigrant”? That is a bald faced lie! We have no problem with LEGAL immigrants. So we are bad Americans because we want to preserve jobs for Americans rather than illegal aliens? Is that what you mean by wanting to hold down one group to benefit another? Whose country is this anyway? Doesn’t it belong to the group called American citizens?
    What an elitist attitude! So anyone who does manual labor, who isn’t a professional, “squandered” their opportunities? What a simplistic way of looking at the situation; anything that fits your agenda, though, right??? You are aware that many Americans do construction work, aren’t you? Construction jobs only pay half of what they use to due to the large supply of illegal alien labor and now that there are so many of them on those jobs that American English speakers aren’t even welcome anymore due to that and the language barriers now.
    First of all, you need to talk to people who OWNED businesses who were PUT OUT OF BUSINESS because unscrupulous employers hired illegals and they were not able to compete with the labor costs!
    Second of all, there are many people in this country–who because of personal circumstances or intellecutal limitations–are only able to do lower skilled work. Not everybody has the capability to attend college or even trade schools. It is not up to YOU, El Guapo, to decide which American deserves to keep his job and which one DOES NOT! It is not up to YOU to decide that he should be doing something else so one of your precious illegals can take HIS JOB! Who in the hell do you think you are???!!!
    One of the reasons we have immigrtion laws is to protect citizen workers from having their jobs taken and their wages depressed. It is also to protect the immigrants from exploitation!
    The problem with people like you is that you do not give a rip about American citizens as you admitted (you merely feels “pity” for them for having “squandered” their opportunities). It just makes me sick!

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 25, 2008 at 4:24 am

    To answer your question, I’ve never called you “anti-immigrant”. I’ve never called you a name. Like I said at the beginning, my comments address the issues, not people. You have insulted me personally more than once. It doesn’t add to your argument. You might as well call me “big nose”. It’s so immature.
    With respect to these Americans that, according to you, I don’t give a rip about, I voted for politicians who have taxed me and used the money to provide them education and training. Each one has received an education (based on $5 to $10,000 per year) costing up to $120,000. We’ve invested $120,000 in education for these Americans. Beyond that as I’ve explained we also provide opportunities for further education and training. When is enough enough? I mean come on. That should be enough for them to compete in the job market against someone with a third grade education who doesn’t even speak English. No. I’m sorry. After that there’s no reason to hold millions of other people down just so another can earn a little extra.
    Sandra asks: “It is not up to YOU, El Guapo, to decide which American deserves to keep his job and which one DOES NOT!” Yet she feels that SHE can decide who gets to work in our economy and who does not. Sandra has decided that millions of people of a particular group should not be permitted to work in our economy. She bases that on where they landed when they fell out of their mothers’ wombs.
    But the difference comes down to this: Sandra thinks a certain group of people are more important and more deserving than other groups. In contrast, people that are pro-immigrant don’t discriminate. Like my brother Bob used to sing:
    One love
    One heart
    Give thanks and praise to the Lord and I will feel all right.

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 25, 2008 at 1:05 pm

    A certain group ARE more deserving El Guapo. Americans! Americans living legally in America, OBVIOUSLY, deserve more than illegals living here. Likewise, legal Mexicans living in Mexico deserve more than illegals living in Mexico. Why is it such a trauma for you to empathize with Americans?

  • Avatar
    Michaela
    December 25, 2008 at 7:18 pm

    El Guapo, you just gave me my laugh for the day. I think what you meant to say….and btw it seems we have to constantly point this out to your ilk, is that “people who are pro-ILLEGAL immigrant don’t discriminate. Of course, that is why I laugh…you pro-illegals are the biggest group of racists I have ever come across.
    But the difference comes down to this: Sandra thinks a certain group of people are more important and more deserving than other groups. In contrast, people that are pro-immigrant don’t discriminate

  • Avatar
    Sandra
    December 25, 2008 at 9:39 pm

    El Guapo,
    Maybe you should go back and read your own posts where you have used the term “anti-immigrant” ad mauseum thruout this blog then.
    You just don’t get it do you? Many Americans like physical labor jobs and those jobs used to pay a fair wage before the arrival of millions of illegal aliens. Are you suggesting that all Americans should take an opportunity at doing something they may not like doing such as a desk job so that they can give up something they like doing for an illegal alien? They can’t compete because illegals are doing those jobs for half the money. It isn’t about an American not being able to compete educationally against an illegal with a third grade education. It is all about money and greed on he part of the law breaking employer and his accomplices the illegal aliens. You find that admirable?
    Of course American citizens rate more inmportance and more rights in their own country than an illegal alien group! Are you kidding making such a ridiculous statement? No, I haven’t decided all by myself that illegal aliens shouldn’t be allowed to work in our economy, OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS HAVE!!
    People who are pro-immigrant know the difference between being that and being pro-illegal alien. One is an honorable and lawful stance to take and the other is not. Are we also discriminating against citizens who commmit crimes by seeking them out and making sure that justice is served?

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 26, 2008 at 4:23 am

    Sandra is grossly misinformed about the people whose incomes are adversely affected by immigration. Most anti-immigrant fanatics are confused and/or misinformed about the issues I find. It’s probably because they spend so much time insulting their opponents rather than addressing the actual issues.
    According to Professor Borjas, the only group that is adversely affected by immigration is high school drop outs. And their incomes are only adversely affected by about 5% give or take which might add up to about $2,000 per year. It’s not a whole lot. Other studies have shown that merely graduating from high school can increase one’s earnings potential by as much as 40%. Now we’re talking turkey. What’s it take to graduate from high school these days? I mean come on. If you sit in class and breathe during the school year, you’ll get a diploma.
    These high school drop outs – these people who can’t get out of bed and drag their bodies to school – have themselves to blame for their lower incomes. What a cop out to blame immigrants for their plight.
    Michaela reinforces the point that Sandra illustrated so well. Thanks. Anti-immigrant fanatics for some reason think that people who landed on U.S. soil when they fell out of their mothers’ wombs are more important than others. And Michaela starts with the accusations of racism. That is classic. I wish I had a nickel for every time an anti-immigrant fanatic did that.

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    Horace
    December 26, 2008 at 11:53 am

    Challis said: “That really disturbs me, when each American is being asked to be homeland security.”
    Why not? don’t we have a duty to our fellow Americans to see that the laws of this country are enforced. After all, the laws of our country are enacted on our behalf by our democratically elected officials. The police and ICE cannot be everywhere. If we just depended upon them without our help, none of our criminal element would be arrested. Once it was considered the civic duty of every American to support our law enforcement agencies. And agency cooperation, between state, county and federal agencies was an absolute must in order to enforce out laws. Now its demonized by special interest groups. Suspect the motives of anyone who states that law enforcement shouldn’t be a cooperative effort between citizen and his appointed law enforcement officers. Civics 101, anyone?

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    Irma
    December 26, 2008 at 3:03 pm

    Time will solve everything eventually.
    Soon Latinos will command enough of the electorate to be able to demand and fair immigration reform.
    People with views like Sandra, Michaela and Horace may then realize that “laws” are not
    absolute – they can and will be changed if
    the majority wants it to be so.

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    Sandra
    December 26, 2008 at 8:42 pm

    Ell Guapo,
    Again WHO is anti-immigrant? Who are those people you keep referring to? I certainly am not anti-immigrant.
    What a joke! That is all YOU have done in this blog is to insult your opponents. Starting right out with the lie that we are anti-immigrant!
    No I am not misinformed how illegal aliens have lowered wages for many manual labor jobs in this country. I know construction workers personally that can longer make a living wage at it because of the available supply of illegal workers and there are so many of them on those jobs now that even if an American were willing to work at half price, they aren’t even welcomed anymore because of the language barriers it has created. We aren’t talking about high school dropout here but adult Americans who have done those jobs for years. Blacks have been replaced by illegal alien Hispanics on janitorial jobs and on other low skilled jobs that they use to do also. No one is blaming IMMMIGRANTS but ILLEGL ALIENS for the above. Why can’t you be honest and keep the two groups seperate? How dishonest of you to call illegal aliens, “immigrants”!
    Even person born has come from their mother’s womb and no one is saying that anyone is more important than another as a HUMAN. But that isn’t what we are talking about here. What we are talking about is the right of any country to have and enforce their immigration laws. It has nothing to do with the fact that we are all human. What a ridiculous remark to make. Are you for real? Did you fall on your head when YOU fell from your mother’s womb? Something must have happened to you to screw up your brain because you aren’t thinking rationally.

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    Sandra
    December 27, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    Irma, and I am 100% positive that if the huge majority of illegal aliens weren’t Latinos that you and your ethnic kind wouldn’t care less about and CIR. God forbid that any ethnic group reach majority proportion just so though they can seek special favors for their own kind with a political agenda to take over a country that they were never the majority in and therefore change it’s natural demographics, language and culture to be their own. I guess genocide and racism don’t bother some. And before you start in with the past, I am against any invasions of any country and genocide against any of the natural citizens of any country.

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    Michaela
    December 27, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    El Guapo said:
    It never ceases to amaze me how selfless many immigrants are. The bravery and selflessness of immigrants is something that I aspire to emulate.”
    Selfless? You aspire to emulate them? Unbelievable Guapo. They are not “selfless.” They are selfish and self-centered. They do not sneak across our border to help the American economy. They seek only to help their homeland. That is the reason the U.S. does not need or want illegal aliens. We want immigrants who will contribute to OUR economy.
    As far as sleeping on the floor, blah, blah, blah, who cares? They brought that on themselves. The only impoverished people I am concerned about are Americans and we have many.

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    Michaela
    December 28, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    It is already clear that Hispanics have the attitude that they did Obama a “favor” by voting for him and that he had better own up to his end of the bargain, i.e., give Hispanics what they want. How childish and immature of these people.

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    El Guapo
    December 28, 2008 at 4:54 pm

    There was a guy in North Carolina earlier this year. Terry Funderburk was in the construction business. As the entire home construction industry flatlined, the amount of jobs that Terry got dwindled. Like Sandra, he ignorantly blamed illegal immigrants. Somehow he knew, by their appearance, that the workers employed by his competition were illegal aliens. I asked him how he knew they were illegal aliens. I got a song and dance and a bunch of insults. As the construction industry was one of the first industries to take a big hit during this recession, a lot of anti-immigrant fanatics ignorantly blamed immigrants for the fact that white construction workers had less work. Those of us with half a brain or more saw the obvious – the entire industry was suffering.
    We hired a company to construct a deck recently. The guys that did the work were latinos. Sandra could probably tell you whether they were legal or not. She evidently has that ability. I can’t tell. But the supervisor was a white guy. He was able to make more money hiring immigrants to do the work. There was a study done a couple of years ago on Singapore. It found that the presence of immigrant domestic servants resulted in an increase in incomes of Singaporeans. It is believed that immigrants have a similar effect in this country. An uneducated immigrant does the chump work meanwhile better educated Americans do the plumbing, electricity, supervising and accounting. The result is that everyone is better off. Well, everyone except the slackers.
    Michaela makes a claim that I haven’t heard before. She assumes that people work their jobs out of benevolence. Immigrants are selfish because their motivation to work is not to benefit the U.S. economy. I doubt there are any sane people who are motivated to work because it benefits the U.S. economy. When you get out of bed, you go to work to feed your face and your family. Michaela thinks Chef Boy R Dee is a nice guy. He works hard. He makes spaghetti and meatballs for children to enjoy. How ignorant! Chef Boy R Dee works because it benefits him. Adam Smith wrote over two hundred years ago: “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. Of course there are people who volunteer their time at Habitat for Humanity or at the local food bank. May God bless them!
    I like Michaela’s statement: “The only impoverished people I am concerned about are Americans…” It’s kind of funny how she makes that statement in the same post that she criticizes others for being selfish. Gotta luv it!

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    Sandra
    December 29, 2008 at 7:55 am

    Michaala,
    The Hispanic vote only comprises about 8% of the electorate. Blacks are slightly higher. Since whites are the majority in this country, it was white people who voted him in, not the combined total of minorities. So doesn’t Obama owe white people instead?

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    Sandra
    December 29, 2008 at 8:15 am

    El Guapo,
    Stop lying and calling these illegal aliens “immigrants” and stop lying and saying that law abidng Americans are anti-“immigrant”. You lose any credibility you had by not debating with honesty and spinning and twisting words to your liking. WE AREN’T TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRANTS HERE!!!!!
    You are lying to yourself if you don’t think that there are millions of illegal aliens working construction jobs. It isn’t about looks but about documents. I never said I could tell by looks. Your lies get bigger and bigger in here. Americans have every right to do drywalling for living if they so choose and not have to compete with illegal aliens for those jobs. No American should have to step aside on any type of job they choose to do and no matter how low skilled it is to accomodate illegal aliens. There are illegals that do plumbing and other more highly skilled jobs so your point is moot on that one too.
    Why are you favoring illegal aliens over your own fellow American citizens and the laws of this country? They aren’t broken, they just weren’t enforced. We have to limit legal immigration because of population growth. We have to make sure that not one certain ethnic group gets more of a quota than other ethnic groups to be fair and to aid in assimilation. Geez, this is just common sense. What is wrong with you?

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    Michaela
    December 29, 2008 at 4:19 pm

    That is an excellent point Sandra. Listening to all these Hispanics you’d think they and they alone were the ones that got this traitor elected.
    Sandra :
    Michaala,
    The Hispanic vote only comprises about 8% of the electorate. Blacks are slightly higher. Since whites are the majority in this country, it was white people who voted him in, not the combined total of minorities. So doesn’t Obama owe white people instead?

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    December 30, 2008 at 5:49 pm

    While there are illegal aliens working construction jobs, there is no evidence that they have suppressed wages for skilled workers. I again refer to Borjas. American citizens do NOT have the right to squander the many, many opportunities given them and expect high incomes. All the rights that American citizens DO have are sufficient for them to achieve prosperity if they are willing to work hard and make sacrifices. All studies have found that immigration has little effect on this.
    And I am not favoring illegal aliens over American citizens. What YOU are doing is favoring U.S. citizens over others. This, as I have pointed out already, is the difference between your view and mine. You wish to hold back some people because of your erroneous belief that holding back John will help Jim.
    Sandra has illustrated another debate tactic commonly employed by anti-immigrant fanatics: defining the opponent’s position. It’s easy to win an argument if you can define your opponent’s position. A lot of people use the term “open borders”. I have yet to hear anyone actually argue for opening the border with no restrictions. Sandra has accused me of favoring illegal aliens over U.S. citizens and the laws of this country. She has accused me of not giving a “rip” for American citizens. None of these beliefs I have expressed. Sandra makes these accusations because she is unable to refute my actual position.
    By the way, 8 U.S.C. 1101 item a(3) defines alien as any person not a citizen or national of the United States. So you are correct in stating that illegal immigrants are “aliens”. They certainly are. To explain this I usually use George W. Bush as an example. George Bush is a father. He meets the definition of a father. But he also meets the definition of President. He meets both definitions. Some individuals who meet the definition of “alien” also meet the definition of “immigrant” under 8 U.S.C. 1101 item a(15). The terms are not mutually exclusive.
    According to Merriam-Webster, an immigrant is “a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence.” Many individual which meet the definition of illegal alien have come to the country to take up permanent residence thereby meeting the definition of “immigrant”. I know a lot of anti-immigration fanatics insist on the exclusive use of the term “illegal alien”. However, as I have shown, those individuals also meet other definitions such as man, woman, child, human being, and immigrant. That the anti-immigrant fanatics make a fuss over this shows their extreme pettiness.

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    Horace
    December 31, 2008 at 10:47 am

    “According to Merriam-Webster, an immigrant is “a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence.”
    That’s true, but that does not negate the requirement that prospective immigrants follow our due process in applying for citizenship. No foreigner has a moral or legal right to become a citizen of the U.S. Permission to become a legal immigrant of this country comes from the people of this country through the laws of this country. This will never change, regardless of any future ill conceived amnesty. Illegal immigrants have no more right to claim immigrant status than a Japanese who holds a visa to come to this country to visit Disneyland.

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    Sandra
    December 31, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    The bottom line El Guapo is that every nation has a right to immigration laws and to enforce them. They have a right to secure their borders from illegal entry. That is one argument you cannot refute so you use diversionary tactics away from that undisputable and sole reasoon to object to illegal immigration. Nice try, but no cigar.
    If you want to seek change to our immigration laws you have every right as a citizen to do that but you do not have the right to falsely accuse Americans of being anti-immigrant who think that our existing laws are ok and they will work with the proper enforcement. Illegal aliens do not have the right to come here in violation of our “existing” laws either. You ridiculous remarks that there is something wrong for an American citizen to put the interests of their fellow citizens and their country above the interests of illegal foreigners are so off the charts that it makes one’s head turn completely turn around on it’s axis. You totally lack common sense and reasoning and show no loyalty to this country whatsover.

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    Michaela
    January 1, 2009 at 3:22 pm

    Irma said:
    “Soon Latinos will command enough of the electorate to be able to demand and fair immigration reform.”
    What an unbelievably RACIST and anti-American statement to make Irma. I am appalled at the hatred for Americans you have, especially white Americans. YOU are the racist, xenophobe, nativist. YOU are the hater. YOU are the reason Americans do not trust Hispanics anymore.

  • Avatar
    El Guapo
    January 1, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    As a matter of fact, I DO have the right to accuse someone of being anti-immigrant. Whether my accusation is accurate does not negate me that right. Wishing to restrict people from voicing their opinions is another common characteristic common among anti-immigration fanatics, and it’s another key difference between myself and Sandra. She claims that I don’t have a right to express certain opinions. I have never expressed any belief that Sandra doesn’t have the right to express her opinions.
    Sandra is correct in that illegal aliens do not have the right to come here in violation of our laws. And I never said that there is something wrong for an American citizen to put the interests of their fellow citizens and their country above others. I said it was selfish. It is. I just went over this in my previous post where Sandra likes to define my opinion. She accuses me of holding certain beliefs that I never expressed.
    I have never said that a nation doesn’t have the right to create and enforce laws. I have never said that a nation doesn’t have the right to secure it’s borders. Most of my comments are directed at the myriad of falsities that anti-immigration fanatics spread.

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    Sandra
    January 2, 2009 at 8:39 am

    El Guapo, sorry I didn’t make myself clearer. Yes, you do have the right to your opinion and even a right to falsely accuse people of things in accordance with free speech but if you have any morals at all you wouldn’t do that since it isn’t true that Americans are anti-“immigrant”. It is called a lie! Yes, you even have the right to lie but why would you want to as it is immoral.
    I have seen more attempts at restriction of free speech on the pro side of this issue than on the anti side by far. The pros try to label it as hate speech and then they use the race card on you. Many pro blogs even delete anti posts and then lie about why it happened. At least I give credit to Marisa for allowing all opinions and not deleting them or lying about what she has said in here.
    Yes, you expressed that you thought Americans on low skilled jobs should step aside for illegal aliens. You were chastizing Americans for being selfish and some other similar remarks you have made along those lines and you know it. Don’t try to backpeddle now because your posts are still here for all to read. If there is anything I detest it is liars!

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    El Guapo
    January 2, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    I never expressed that Americans should step aside for illegal aliens. I never said that anyone should step aside for illegal aliens. My posts are still here for Sandra to read. This is what I was talking about earlier. Sandra has again shown us a debate tactic commonly employed by anti-immigrant fanatics: defining the opponent’s position. The reason she does this is because she is not capable of forming an argument to refute my actual position.
    I have never expressed any desire to restrict Americans’ participation in the economy. In fact I explained how the representatives that I voted for have spent upwards of $100,000 in education for each American. I am also in favor or provide a system for student loans, grants and scholarships so people can further their education if they so desire.
    That’s what I’m about. To improve someone’s standard of living, give that person the tools to be more productive. To the contrary, Sandra wants to restrict someone else in order to improve someone’s standard of living. My solution results in society as a whole being better off. Sandra’s plan results in a net negative effect on the economy as a whole.

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