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Latina Lista: News from the Latinx perspective > Columns & Features > Guest Voz > Guest Voz: The Binghamton, NY tragedy sheds light on the challenges immigrants face learning English

Guest Voz: The Binghamton, NY tragedy sheds light on the challenges immigrants face learning English

By Kathleen Leos and Lisa Saavedra

LatinaLista

Kathleen Leos, president of The Global Institute for Language & Literacy Development, LLC.
Kathleen Leos serves as president of The Global Institute for Language & Literacy Development, LLC. Ms. Leos previously served a six-year presidential appointment as the Assistant Deputy Secretary and Director to the US Department of Education’s Office of English Language Acquisition (OELA). In that position, she was the principal advisor to the U.S. Secretaries of Education Rod Paige and Margaret Spellings on all matters relating to English language learning (ELL) students. She developed regulations, policies and procedures to create a national education and accountability infrastructure in 50 states, DC and Puerto Rico.
Lisa Saavedra is the vice president of The Global Institute for Language and Literacy Development, LLC. Prior to joining with Ms. Leos, Ms. Saavedra was the Bureau Chief for the Bureau of Academic Achievement through Language Acquisition for the Florida Department of Education. Her responsibilities included development of legislation and rules for the state governance of ELL policies and she served as an expert advisor during several legal class action complaints filed in federal district court regarding the provisions of equal access for ELLs and the protection of their civil rights.
In a special post for Latina Lista, and in realizing that any future immigration reform measure will include a provision to learn English, Ms. Leos and Ms. Saavedra share their thoughts on current challenges facing ELL learners and what Congress, the community and educators need to do to ensure success for these English learners, minimize their frustration levels and create an easier transition into American society.

The recent tragedy in Binghamton, New York where a Vietnamese immigrant intentionally took his life and that of 13 other individuals ignites the ongoing debate about effective English language programs offered in centers and classrooms throughout the United States.
The press stated that one of the individual’s motives was “. . . his poor English skills, which he tried to improve taking classes at the center.” For years, this issue has plagued many K-12 and adult students who continually struggle to acquire English and successfully navigate society’s multiple challenges.
In 2008, the U.S Department of Education published a report stating there are 5 ½ million English language learners (ELLS) in grades K-12, with an annual demographic growth rate of twelve percent- the fastest growing student group in America’s schools.
The majority or 85 percent of ELLs are born in the United States and begin school in the primary grades. The 2000 U.S. Census reported 17.9 percent of the nation’s population 5 years and older live in homes where a language other than English is spoken.
Yet, in 2005, the Pew Hispanic Center reported that that the graduation rate for U.S.-born ELLs is only 65 percent and the primary reason ELLs leave high school before graduating is the difficulty students have acquiring the English language skills needed to master high school academic courses.
The statistics are staggering and to date no real solution has been found. Why?

The dizzying thirty-year political and education debate focuses on which language education program approach — bilingual, dual language or English immersion — effectively teaches ELLs English at significant levels to master academic content at grade level in English.
However, there is little if any evidence-based research that answers this question conclusively.
The research cited by advocates of any particular approach is quasi-experimental, descriptive or anecdotal at best. Schools offer numerous language education programs but the program titles often contradict accurate implementation and are not based on proven scientific theory. Hence the language debate continues.
The U.S. Congress attempted to resolve this issue in 2002 with the passage of the No Child Left Behind Act (NCLB), which required states to develop K-12 English language standards equal to the state academic content standards and corresponding assessments.
This requirement provided states a blueprint for developing new educational approaches that ensure ELLs access to grade level academic content while learning English. But student achievement data recently published demonstrate mixed results: ELLs are making progress, but a persistent achievement gap remains.
What can communities, educators and Congress do to conclusively end the language debate?
Demand results! It is imperative that any language education program implemented in centers and schools is based on scientific research and positive student achievement results.
Collectively, we must make a national commitment to support multiple research projects that determine what type of language education programs work for ELLs, under what conditions and in which environments.
A solid foundation of scientific knowledge is necessary to support and stimulate meaningful and long-lasting change. Reform efforts would also benefit from a supportive Press and community involvement that acknowledges the hard work and extraordinary effort ELLs make to learn the English necessary to become contributing members of our society.
In truth, our nation’s future depends on significantly changing the education trajectory for all students, including U.S. born and immigrant English language learners.

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Comment(27)

  • Avatar
    Karen
    April 17, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    If I were in charge I would place every pre-school age child in an English language immersion program. Head Start programs should be in English–not in Spanish and not bilingual. Too many people are invested in keeping immigrants Spanish speaking: Spanish language TV, people who make more money because if bilingual programs, etc.
    This isn’t complicated. Every other group comes here and learns how to speak English.

  • Avatar
    Gena
    April 18, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    I volunteer through my local diocese as an ESL tutor. It’s far more difficult to teach an adult a foreign language than it is a child. Adults generally have to work for a living and in the case of the lady I tutor she also has to care for a family and take care of a home as well as work. That doesn’t give her much time to study English. Her children seem to be picking up English fine and her oldest is definitely bilingual and in fact is also called into play to act as translator for his parents quite often. What I see is my student’s oldest son who has to play both language translator and cultural translator for his parents and that this causes problems for him. I thing part of this young boy resents having to play this adult role for his parents and it certainly causes friction between him and his parents. In playing the role of translator for his parents and the English speaking world he thinks he’s more adult than he actually is and demands more freedom and the desire to be treated as far older than he is. I can’t seem to find articles and web info that deals with this particular aspect of English learners – the children who have to act as language and cultural intermediaries between the adults in their familites and the wider English speaking culture. Any thoughts anyone???

  • Avatar
    Mitchell
    April 18, 2009 at 11:39 pm

    To Karen: I’m glad you’re not in charge based on your comment.
    English is my first language and it can be difficult to learn. Some of the rules make no sense whatsoever.
    I’m slowly learning Espanol on my own at the moment but I plan to take a course soon. I watch and listen to the Espanol language networks.
    As far as immigrants learning English, hell, many of the people born here can’t even speak English and really we don’t speak English here in the States. English is spoken in the UK. And frankly, I’m sick of hearing English. I want to hear more Espanol. I even get annoyed when I hear a little bit of English on Univisión, for example.
    There was a time when it was considered positive for one to be multilingual. Schools required one to take courses in another language. But here in the regressive, backward-thinking States, we’re moving away from that positive aspect.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    April 20, 2009 at 4:36 am

    Mitchell said: “There was a time when it was considered positive for one to be multilingual. Schools required one to take courses in another language. But here in the regressive, backward-thinking States, we’re moving away from that positive aspect.”
    Well, boo hoo, Mitchell, complain all you want about English, but you’ll have to learn it to be a success in this country. This country is primarily an English speaking one. Get over it! Advocating multi-linguism is like promoting a tower of Babble society, and promoting mis-communication as a virtue.
    Language is a tool of communication, and that’s all. We have what’s called diversity of culture in this country and English is the means by which we overcome the communications gap and avoid misunderstandings that are a source of conflict that results from this. There are thousands of languages in the world, but only English has been declared to be universal, and again it’s so that all of us on this planet will be able to communicate and avoid conflict. Misunderstanding intentions is a major source of world conflict and it is imperative that we have one common language with which to do so.
    English is the fastest growing language in terms of scientific and social growth. No other language has more new words added to it every year than English. English has a far greater vocabulary than Spanish, for example, which now grows mainly by borrowing from English. But Spanish isn’t the only language that borrows from English, Korean and many others are adopting the same new set of words generated from English.
    Learn Spanish if you wish to, or any other one for that matter, but remember that English is the language of every successful citizen in this country. The future of the U.S.is still in English and any immigrant who fails to learn English will never become fully integrated into our society.

  • Avatar
    Alessandra
    April 20, 2009 at 11:07 am

    Mitchell, if you are tired of hearing English, you’re in for a rough life as English is the language of commerce in the world and, consequently, is spoken in many countries.
    Immigrants who want to succeed in the U.S. will learn English just as all of our ancestors did. Some immigrants due to age or other limitations might not learn English well, but their children will, following the pattern of every other immigrant group to the U.S.
    Spanish-speaking immigrants are not the only immigrants to the U.S., Mitchell. There are immigrants here from all over the world, speaking many different languages. Therefore, it is only common sense that we need one unifying common language with which to communicate.
    Learning a second language is good and it is fine that you have CHOSEN to take up Spanish. But the choice of that language should be a CHOICE, not something forced upon a population because of the wave of immigrants du jour at any given point in history. Many people might CHOOSE to learn their ancestral languages–possibly Italian, German, Chinese, Russian, and have no connecton to the language of the current wave of immigrants at a given moment in time.
    The fact that some Americans do not speak perfect English is a non-sequitur as people in a variety of nations do not speak with perfect grammar; many of the migrants from South of the border are illiterate or semi-literate in their own language. As well, Mexican Spanish is different from the Spanish spoken in Spain, so I’m not sure what the significance is of the comparison between American English and UK English.

  • Avatar
    Karen
    April 21, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    MItchell: “English is my first language and it can be difficult to learn. Some of the rules make no sense whatsoever.”
    Exactly. That’s why it’s
    best to immerse a child in it at an early age. I have no problem with people being multilingual, but most public schools are not equipped to teach young children how to function in more than one language.
    Head Start is the best place to immerse poor Spanish speaking children in English. Making it bilingual does nothing for the child who has no other place to learn English.
    This shouldn’t even be controversial. Common sense dictates that a person should learn
    the language of his adopted country. If I moved to China, I’d learn Chinese, not walk around expecting everybody to translate for me, as though I were a dependent child.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    April 21, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    I would like to ask Alessandra and Horace
    why the murderers, rapists, and thieves who came from Europe to settle on this land without regard for the people already here didnt learn Indian.
    They brought their language with them. What hypocrites asking others to do what their own people wouldent. Yet no criticism of the pillagers heard from these two.
    English may be the international language now but tomorrow it may be Chinese, especially if this Empire collapses.
    Everyone here in this country STILL has the right to learn any and as many languages as they choose. You go Mitchell. Educate Yourself. Dont be a backward thinker!!!

  • Avatar
    Alessandra
    April 22, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Evelyn, the people who fought for independence from England, who created this government and nation called the United States, who wrote the Constitution which is the supreme law of the land, spoke English. All I can say is that when my ancestors came here, they learned English. If German had been the established language, or some other at that point in history, I am sure they would have learned that one so, no, I do not see any “hypocrisy” in my position.
    In addition, my ancestors did not rape, murder or steal from anyone; although they did have a cross or two burned on their front lawn. Evelyn you seem to want to take a 15th or 18th century ethos and apply those standards to today. It just creates confusion and discord as humanity evolves and what was considered “normal” or accepted in the 7th, 11th, 15th, or 18th century is no longer considered as such today.
    My ancestral homeland was invaded and overrun by quite a few different groups, resulting ultimately in the destruction of that nation and, ultimately, of the entire Western civilization, plunging it into the Dark Ages. It took centuries to come out of that and that nation never regained its former stature. The history of humankind, unfortunately, is fraught with conflict and war.
    Spanish is not an indigenous language obviously, but a European one–a beautiful European language. I think it’s great to speak different languages as I told Mitchell; I speak more than one myself. However, Mitchell wasn’t merely expressing a desire to learn another language, he was also expressing a desire to hear “less” English which I found rather odd seeing that English is the language of commerce in the world at the present time. If I am to learn yet another foreign language, I think I would like it to be my ancestral language; that would be my choice.
    I think everyone should be free to learn whatever language they choose, but think it is just common sense to have one unifying common language in which we can all communicate. English seems to be the logical choice.
    The vast majority of Americans of all races, ethnicities favor English as our common unifying language and believe that new immigrants should learn it and I am counted amongst their numbers.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    April 23, 2009 at 2:04 pm

    Alessandra
    What you have given us is the whitewashed
    manipulated version of our history which is incorrect!
    Guilt by association, accessory to crime, and reaping the benefits of crimes are all against the law.
    The fact that you or any of your ancestors have anchored themselves to this land and reap the benefits of the crimes comitted against it’s original inhabitants is a crime.
    It is not prosecuted because those who comitted the crime are white and have manipulated the law to fit their agenda. You know Manifest Destiny and all that BS.
    In any court of law to this day it is still considered a crime to murder someone, and reap the benefits of the crime, even if you are not the killer.
    You say I want “to take a 15th or 18th century ethos and apply those standards to today.”
    Murder and robbing someone of their belongings are wrong in any century.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    April 24, 2009 at 4:43 am

    Evelyn said: “The fact that you or any of your ancestors have anchored themselves to this land and reap the benefits of the crimes comitted against it’s original inhabitants is a crime.”
    In order for a person not to reap such benefits, one would have to move to another planet, because the principles that have made this world what it is today extend across the globe. Nations around the world have benefited you and every Hispanic and American Indian living today. Your pathetic dismissal of the great things that this country has done since its founding are largely the work of English speaking peoples. Spanish speaking cultures by comparison have, up until recent times bee oppressive of their peoples and their technological accomplishments been rather modest. I suggest that you move to the moon, Evelyn, because its the only place the English speaking peoples haven’t done much. Oops, forgot about landing on the moon. Next stop, Mars, for you Evelyn.

  • Avatar
    Alessandra
    April 24, 2009 at 9:00 am

    Wow, my ancestors are “guilty by association” for events which occurred when they weren’t even living here. That’s a pretty amazing concept.
    So anyone who is living in the U.S. today, who is benefitting from living here, is complicit in acts of war which occurred centuries ago? Or is it only those evil, blue-eyed devils?
    The topic here was language; I stated that my ancestors came here in accordance with the immigration laws in place at the time. They learned English which was not their native language. They were discriminated against also as were many other groups who came here. Nothing I said was “white washed” but the truth as to what my own ancestors experiences were.
    You know what I can’t help thinking about right now? How I hear over and over and over from the pro-illegal advocates how children who were brought here illegally by their parents should not have to “pay” for their parents’ mistakes. And yet, according to you, I’m supposed to pay for things another group of people did long before my ancestors ever set foot on this soil?
    You call the truth “white wash” because it doesn’t suit your political agenda. Well the truth is that there have been wars fought all through the history of mankind. There were winners and there were losers and to the winners went the spoils. That’s what I meant by applying the ethos of centuries-gone-by to today. There have always been wars fought over land and resources. The Native Americans themselves fought each other’s tribes, enslaved, raped, and murdered each other. The Aztecs so brutalized the tribes within their sphere of influence and were so hated that those tribes allied with the Spaniards to defeat them. Today we try to settle our differences in a diplomatic manner. Even so, wars still sometimes break out and there are genocides, rapes, and enslavement. And guess what, Evelyn? It’s not only those “evil white people” who do it.
    Now we have a nation here called the United State of America. It is the 21st century and we are a sovereign nation. Mexico and Canada are also sovereign nations with similar (although respectively different) histories as the U.S. And you don’t object to their having immigration laws–or do you?
    Well, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Evelyn. No matter what you say or do, nothing will cause me to walk around with sack cloth and ashes, flagellating myself for things that were done long before my ancestors came here. They struggled greatly to achieve a measure of success here, despite being disciminated against. You will not take that away from them and call them murders, rapists, and thieves. You are talking about my grandparents and great-grandparents here, not distant ancestors centuries back that I do not know.
    Which brings up another question: you mentioned “my people.” Well, “my people” are the American people, regardless of race or ethnicity. When you speak of “your people” to whom do you refer?

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    April 26, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Alessandra
    You also state “wars still sometimes break out and there are genocides, rapes, and enslavement. And guess what, Evelyn? It’s not only those “evil white people” who do it. ”
    Really, Please enlighten me as to how many countries whose inhabitants are of color have invaded other countries. Mexico, Chile, perhaps Panama, El Salvador, Guatemala. Take the blinders off Alessandra, the U.S.A. has invaded all those countries mentioned above plus these below to steal their wealth and impose their will. Not to mention all the countries and continents that have been invaded by other European nations whose inhabitants are ( as you call them ) “evil white people”
    The engine of American foreign policy has been fueled not by a devotion to any kind of morality, but rather by the necessity to serve other imperatives, which can be summarized as follows:
    * making the world safe for American corporations;
    * enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of congress;
    * preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model;
    * extending political and economic hegemony over as wide an area as possible, as befits a “great power.”
    The United States carried out extremely serious interventions into many Nations.
    China, 1945-49:…….Italy, 1947-48:…….Greece, 1947-49:…….Philippines, 1945-53:………South Korea, 1945-53: …….Albania, 1949-53: ……..Germany, 1950s:
    …….Iran, 1953: …….Guatemala, 1953-1990s: ……….. Middle East, 1956-58:……Indonesia, 1957-58:…….British Guiana/Guyana, 1953-64: …….Vietnam, 1950-73:……..Cambodia, 1955-73:…..The Congo/Zaire, 1960-65:…….
    Brazil, 1961-64: ……..Dominican Republic, 1963-66:……..Cuba, 1959 to present:…….Indonesia, 1965: ……..Chile, 1964-73:……Greece, 1964-74:…….East Timor, 1975 to present:……..Nicaragua, 1978-89:…….Grenada, 1979-84:……..Libya, 1981-89:……Panama, 1989:……Iraq, 1990s:…….Afghanistan, 1979-92:………El Salvador, 1980-92:…..Haiti, 1987-94:…….Yugoslavia, 1999:
    “the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in the furtherance of political or social objectives”
    This is terrorism
    ARGENTINA
    1891
    CHILE
    1890
    Troops: Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
    HAITI
    1891
    Troops: Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated.
    IDAHO
    1892
    Troops: Army suppresses silver miners’ strike.
    HAWAII
    1893 (-?)
    Naval, troops: Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
    CHICAGO
    1894
    Troops: Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed
    NICARAGUA
    1894
    Troops: Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
    CHINA
    1894-95
    Naval, troops: Marines land in Sino-Jap War.
    KOREA
    1894-96
    Troops: Marines kept in Seoul during war.
    PANAMA
    1895
    Troops, naval: Marines land in Colombian province.
    NICARAGUA
    1896
    Troops: Marines land in port of Corinto.
    CHINA
    1898-1900
    Troops, boxer. Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
    PHILIPPINES
    1898-1910(-?)
    Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos.
    CUBA
    1898-1902(-?)
    Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
    PUERTO RICO
    1898(-?)
    Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, occupation
    continues.
    GUAM
    1898(-?)
    Naval, troops: Seized from Spain, still used as base.
    NICARAGUA
    1898
    Troops: Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
    SAMOA
    1899(-?)
    Troops: Battle over succession to throne.
    NICARAGUA
    1899
    Troops: Marines land at port of Bluefields.
    PANAMA
    1901-14
    Naval, troops: Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99.
    HONDURAS
    1903
    Troops: Marines intervene in revolution.
    DOMINICAN REP.
    1903-04
    Troops: U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
    KOREA
    1904-05
    Troops: Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
    CUBA
    1906-09
    Troops: Marines land in democratic election.
    NICARAGUA
    1907
    Troops: “Dollar Diplomacy” protectorate set up.
    HONDURAS
    1907
    Troops: Marines land during war with Nicaragua.
    PANAMA
    1908
    Troops: Marines intervene in election contest.
    NICARAGUA
    1910
    Troops: Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
    HONDURAS
    1911
    Troops: U.S. interests protected in civil war.
    CHINA
    1911-41
    Naval, troops: Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
    CUBA
    1912
    Troops: U.S. interests protected in Havana.
    PANAMA
    19l2
    Troops: Marines land during heated election.
    HONDURAS
    19l2
    Troops: Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
    NICARAGUA
    1912-33
    Troops, bombing: 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.
    MEXICO
    19l3
    Naval: Americans evacuated during revolution.
    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
    1914
    Naval: Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
    COLORADO
    1914
    Troops: Breaking of miners’ strike by Army.
    MEXICO
    1914-18
    Naval, troops: Series of interventions against nationalists.
    HAITI
    1914-34
    Troops, bombing: 19-year occupation after revolts.
    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
    1916-24
    Troops: 8-year Marine occupation.
    CUBA
    1917-33
    Troops: Military occupation, economic protectorate.
    WORLD WAR I
    19l7-18
    Naval, troops: Ships sunk, fought Germany
    RUSSIA
    1918-22
    Naval, troops: Five landings to fight Bolsheviks.
    PANAMA
    1918-20
    Troops: “Police duty” during unrest after elections.
    YUGOSLAVIA
    1919
    Troops: Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
    HONDURAS
    1919
    Troops: Marines land during election campaign.
    GUATEMALA
    1920
    Troops: 2-week intervention against unionists.
    TURKEY
    1922
    Troops: Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir).
    CHINA
    1922-27
    Naval, troops: Deployment during nationalist revolt.
    HONDURAS
    1924-25
    Troops: Landed twice during election strife.
    PANAMA
    1925
    Troops: Marines suppress general strike.
    CHINA
    1927-34
    Troops: Marines stationed throughout the country.
    EL SALVADOR
    1932
    Naval: Warships sent during Farabundo Marti revolt.
    ZAIRE (CONGO)
    1996-97
    Troops: Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution
    begins.
    LIBERIA
    1997
    Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
    ALBANIA
    1997
    Troops: Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
    SUDAN
    1998
    Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas
    plant.
    AFGHANISTAN
    1998
    Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist
    groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
    IRAQ
    1998-?
    Bombing, missiles: Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons
    inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
    YUGOSLAVIA
    1999-?
    Bombing, missiles: Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw
    from Kosovo.
    YEMEN
    2000
    Naval: Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole.
    MACEDONIA
    2001
    Troops: NATO Troops: shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.
    AFGHANISTAN
    2001
    Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, Bin Laden.
    IRAQ (again)
    2003 – ?

  • Avatar
    Alessandra
    April 27, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    Your “alternative to Capitalism” is Marxism/Socialism, Evelyn. I take it that you don’t object to all of the invasions which the Soviet Union was behind, including the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and all of their interference and influence in Latin America. That is understandable.
    Many conflicts were proxy wars between Communists and the U.S. Leftists usually have sour grapes whenever the Marxists encountered resistance; that also is just logical.
    For heaven’s sakes, WW1, WW2, the Balkans, Rwanda??? Should we have let the genocide continue?
    Japan invaded China, also the Phillippines. And there was also the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, just to name a few. The Rwandan conflict alone was brutal. Check into all of the wars between countries in Africa. There is a genocide going on in the Sudan right now. And let’s not forget the genocide of the Armenians by the Turks. There are many, many more such conflicts which can be easily researched.
    I’m certainly not going to defend every foreign policy decision this government has made as we have sure made some mistakes. But despite those bad decisions, I still feel that this country is more of a force for good in the world than of evil. Of course, a Marxist/Socialist would have the opposite view.
    The ironic thing is that Marxists really didn’t give a hoot about so-called third world countries until after WW1. At that point, when the uprising of the worldwide proletariat didn’t take place as predicted, they had to go to Plan B which was using the third world to bring about their Marxist/Socialist utopia.
    It’s the same old dance with different music. Oh, they change their message once in awhile, repackage it, and sell it as something else. But it’s all the same thing that it’s been for the past 100 years or so.
    They USE race to bring about their Socialism much like the Islamists USE religion to achieve their political agenda.
    I am not twisted and consumed by hatred of any race or culture. There is just as much hatred coming from the far left these days as from the far right. It is just that the targets of their respective hatreds are different. Don’t tell yourself otherwise.
    In the end, I am still in favor of immigrants learning English and children being immersed in English as early as possible, just like Karen.
    And I think you are also forgetting one very important point: the U.S. is not a “white” country per se. Many of our government and military leaders are “people of color.”
    Moving on now…

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    April 28, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    I countered much of your whitewashed version of history with historical facts but I guess Marisa did not see fit post it.
    On the subject of wars, you still did not provide any proof that white people are not to blame for the very largest majority.
    The enormous amount of unprovoked wars by white people show it is they who do not care for people of color by sucking their
    homelands dry and turning them into third world countries.
    That is Marxists AKA
    The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society’s allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    April 28, 2009 at 7:17 pm

    Evelyn has a mind twisted by hate. It’s evident to all that she’s irrational and bigoted. Name a country you do like, Evelyn, and then defend it as being absolutely devoid of sin.
    If this country is so bad, then its people must be evil. If you believe this to be so, then leave. Go! Those of us left behind won’t miss you.
    If we’re so abhorrant, Evelyn, then why do so many millions of Mexicans wish to abandon their wonderful country to come here? That fact alone refutes your arguments.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    April 29, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Obama First 100 Days v Conseratives First 100 Days
    If we’re so abhorrant, Evelyn, then why do so many millions of Mexicans wish to abandon their wonderful country to come here? That fact alone refutes your arguments.
    ~
    That fact proves Mexicans are forced to abandon their country to survive because the U.S. gov. made it impossable for them to provide for their families, by sucking up the wealth of their countries because of greed.
    Basically immigrants come here for the same reason the first immigrants came here.
    No one wants to abandon their home, their friends, family and all they are familiar with unless they are forced to.
    I love this country which is the country of my birth and the land of the first peoples of whom I am a direct descendant.
    I respect the Constitution which was formed using the same laws held by the Iroquois nation. I am willing to fight and die as others have to uphold it.
    The evil is not this Country as a whole, but a few loud mouth, cowardly ignorant hate mongering bigots who despise Obama and Hispanics, especially Mexicans, and dont have the guts to express their true feelings.
    These people hide their feelings and use lies to demonize and scapegoat Obama and Mexicans for the inferiority complex they suffer from brought on by personal failure for making wrong decisions in their life.
    Losers like this have no place in MY country and it is they who will leave or crawl back into the caves from which they emerged to choke on their feelings of inadequacy.
    They also hate people who expose them. TRUTH is their biggest fear, and those who expose them their biggest enemy.

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    Horace
    April 30, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Evelyn,
    White people have no monopoly on bad behavior. Indians made slaves of their enemies. Early American colonists watched helplessly and in shock when they watched allied Indian tribes cut their enemies to pieces, bit by bit, while they were still living. Indians had no reservations about torturing other Indians they fought. Today, that style of war would make them war criminals. I could go on an on about such things. Still want to push your agenda of how bad white people were? Read this…http://books.google.com/books?id=EX4TAAAAYAAJ&dq=Torture+used+by+American+Indians&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=GIupIuWQqR&sig=jMZpE-u7ncXLAVIHS9Vj4Z57WfE&hl=en&ei=Ijz6SefXKIbfmQf6ubWpBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA12,M1 or maybe you’d like this….http://petticoatsandpistols.com/2009/01/13/torture-the-truth-native-america/

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    cookie
    May 1, 2009 at 8:51 am

    Wow, I have never heard such hatred expressed towards the white race before. Those who are being accused of just hating Mexicans in here are only objecting to illegal immigration not Mexicans who are here legally. As for Obama many just disagree with his politics and his party affiliation just as others disagreed with Bush and his party politics. How is that any different?
    The white settlers never came here with the intentions of committing “genocide” against any Native Americans. In fact, when they first came they lived relatively peacefully, side by side. It was when the numbers of European colonists increased that the culture clash ensued.
    The European settlers had completely different values and concepts concerning land ownership than the Native American tribes. The Native Americans had no concept of “deeds” and property ownership. The whites settlers had no intentions of killing any Native Americans; but, when the whites started building their towns and farms and communities, and began to encroach on the Native Americans’ way of life, then the battles began. White settlers were murdered, raped, burned out, tortuered, and kidnapped and sold into slavery for doing NOTHING but farming the land they had settled. I know Evelyn doesn’t want to hear that. She wants to believe that whites came here with the intentions of “wiping out” Native Americans and systematically went about doing so. But that ISN’T WHAT HAPPENED, no matter how much an apparent hatred of whites is being expressed in here.
    What happened is the age-old scenario of two cultures clashing. When that happens, invariably ONE CULTURE will emerge dominant over the other.
    What WAS terrible was the treatment of the Native Americans after this struggle was over and the Euro-Americans had conquered them. That is something we would re-do if we could. However, the actual fight between the two cultures should have been predicted, as nowhere in history have two or more distinct cultures existed on the same land without such occuring.
    And the same thing is going to happen now. Because this is NOT immigration. Immigration is when people come legally to a country, with permission from the government, with the intentions of assimilating to the existing culture and becoming a part of that country–not seeing themselves as a separate cultural group with the intention of constructing a separate society. Illegal immigrants do not come here with the intentions of becoming Americans and assimilating into the existing culture/society. And when the numbers reach critical mass, as they will if this amnesty is granted, then assimilation becomes impossible. We will then have TWO COMPETING CULTURES. One will have to give way to the other.
    People with Ellis Island syndrome make this faulty comparison between this illegal invasion and past waves of immigration. “Well it worked out before, didn’t it?” they naively ask. Did WHAT work out before? The LEGAL immigration of people coming here to assimilate into the existing culture and become PART of the nation or when the white settlers initially came here with NO INTENTIONS of assimilating into the Native American culture???

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    Evelyn
    May 1, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Still want to push your agenda of how bad white people were.
    How bad white people were or are is not my agenda. It has been their actions written in history that have solidified that fact. I only expose them.
    When white people dont leave a trail of bad deeds comitted by them, then they can tell others (Immigrants) what to do.
    Until then they need to be reminded that their past was abhorrent and they have no place to talk.
    When the Native Americans did bad things they did them in their OWN land to each other without involving people from other countries.

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    cookie
    May 2, 2009 at 8:38 am

    So let me get this straight: Evelyn is demonizing EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF AN ENTIRE RACE because of past historical events. ONLY whiiiiiiite people have been guilty since the beginning of recorded history of bad deeds and ONLY whiiiiiite people “leave a trail of bad deeds” for which they, apparently according to her, need to atone forever into infinity!!! And because she SAYS SO, then so it was said, so let it be done! She throws all whiiiiiite people into one group, to all be judged as evil, with their trail of bad deeds. Yet, she doesn’t do this to any other group of people on the face of this earth. And WE are the racists? My God, She really needs to take her blinders off and see herself for what she is.
    No people on the face of this earth are without blame. Yet it is ONLY whites she consigns the “group guilt” too. All other races are to be judged as INDIVIDUALS, but whiiiiiites are to be judged collectively, as a group??? And ALL WHITES are never again allowed to protect their interests or criticize any people of any other race because of what SOME white people did at SOME POINT in history? What a racist concept! She really needs to put down the crack pipe!
    No, what she is doing is this: she is using white guilt to prevent us from preserving our own culture and voting for or against policies which are helpful or harmful to our own interests like any other group today would do. Cripple with guilt ALL WHITE PEOPLE ALIVE TODAY over historical events of the past, and they will be prevented from taking the necessary steps to protect their interests TODAY. Because SOME whiiiiiite people committed bad deeds hundreds of years ago, or 100, or 50 years ago, NO WHITE PEOPLE ALIVE TODAY can ever utter another word in their own defense. Beautiful!
    Sorry, Evelyn,we ain’t buying what you’ve got for sale.
    We’re NOT joining in on your jihad against Western civilization/culture.We feel no obligation to commit cultural suicide because YOU SAY we should! Your strategy ONLY works if we ALLOW it to. And I’m not allowing it for MY part.
    She wants to act as though ONLY CAUCASIANS have been guilty of “bad behavior” since the beginning of recorded history. She was given some examples in another post of non-whites committing atrocities against other people.
    Then she uses the lame excuse that it is just fine for people to commit genocide and war crimes against each other AS LONG AS THEY KEEP IT WITHIN THE RACE! lol! Man, she is one screwed up individual.
    On top of that, she completely ignores all of the amazing and awesome contributions which have been made by Western civilization over the centuries in order to ONLY focus on the bad. Isn’t that just MORE RACISM???? She talks about “exposing people,” but SHE “exposes” HERSELF every time she opens her racist, hateful mouth.
    Anytime you demonize AN ENTIRE RACE for the actions of SOME, that is RACISM, Evelyn.
    You know, she can just “remind away.” It only has power over us if we give it power. While she’s doing that, I’ll be reminding myself of the many wonders Western civilization gave us, including the Magna Carta and our Constitution.
    Non-whites were taking slaves LONG BEFORE whites ever did. But it was WHITES who ended slavery in their culture; slavery STILL EXISTS TODAY in other cultures. But she isn’t concerned with fairness or facts. She is only concerned with demonizing whites today for the purpose I stated. That my dear is racism thru and thru.

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    Evelyn
    May 2, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    FACTS are FACTS cookie, no matter how much you rant and rave they are not going to change.
    Which part of the facts I posted do you not agree with?
    Which one of those invasions by the U.S. do you think did not happen.
    Show me another country below our southern border or anywhere in the world who’s people are of color with a record of invasions into other countries similer to that of the U.S. If you cant your rant wasent worth the time you took to write it.
    Cookie you state “Anytime you demonize AN ENTIRE RACE for the actions of SOME, that is RACISM, Evelyn.”
    If you dispute the facts I used tell me which one.
    If I was lying like the anti-Hispanic especially Mexican Immigrant ignoramuses do, then it would be racist.
    Stating facts is not considered racism.
    Some education might do you a world of good.
    The ranting, raving, and rhetoric you used dispute nothing and solve nothing, it only exposed your ignorance!

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    Liquidmicro
    May 2, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    Evelyn, Cookie took you to task, and you failed to respond intelligently. Your the one ranting about the “whiiiite” people. Cookie gave you many examples of your question: Show me another country below our southern border or anywhere in the world who’s people are of color with a record of invasions into other countries similer to that of the U.S. in her prior comment.
    Me thinks you have a bit of comprehension inability or you did not read what cookie posted. Maybe it was to “factual” for you to believe.

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    cookie
    May 2, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    Evelyn,
    But it ISN’T a fact that the entire white race of yesterday, today and the future should be demonized or held accountable for the sins of SOME whites. That constitutes racism on your part for making that claim. I have never in my entire life seen such hatred and racism towards and entire race as I have read from you!

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    cookie
    May 3, 2009 at 8:06 am

    By the way Evelyn, I am not disputing any facts about this country’s involvement in any wars or invasions but this country has never been entirely white nor have our decision makers all been white. What is wrong is that you are demonizing an entire race of people today that weren’t even involved in any of those decisions and many of them wouldn’t even agree with those decisions. In otherwords you just hate regular white Americans for no logical reason.
    You need to seek help for your obvious hatred of the white race and yes even though you may be partially white you are self-hating that part of yourself and being totally irrational in your blame game of an entire race for the sins of some.
    I would suggest you move to another country since all you do is spout negative things about this country and can see no positives.

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    Evelyn
    May 4, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    cookie :
    Evelyn,
    But it ISN’T a fact that the entire white race of yesterday, today and the future should be demonized or held accountable for the sins of SOME whites.
    I agree, now if you are accusing me of stating that. Show me where I did.
    No one demonized white people they demonized themselves with their actions.
    Since when is talking about the wars or the crimes comitted by white people using ample proof found in American history books, demonization of white people? They are simply facts!
    You have admitted even you can not dispute them. I already knew you couldent because they are based on facts.
    ~
    You said “What is wrong is that you are demonizing an entire race of people today that weren’t even involved in any of those decisions and many of them wouldn’t even agree with those decisions.”
    No they weren’t directly involved and they may not agree but they have decided to stay on the lands stolen by those who did commit these crimes and take advantage of the benifits those crimes have provided. Receiving stolen property is a felony. If they were not white they would be sitting in jail like many Mexicans are.
    Many whites want to commit those crimes all over again. Those are the ones I target.
    That is why they need to be reminded they have no place to talk. Their ancestors came here the same way today’s immigrants come here. Even worse, breaking more laws including murder, rape, and thieving. When they can clean up their past then they can tell others what to do.
    They can still tell others what to do and look like hypocrits because their ancestors did worse and they are reaping the benifits of those crimes knowingly. That makes many accessory to those crimes.
    Hitler killed 7 million Jews. Europeans who invaded the Americas killed 110million Native Americans. Hitler learned from the Europeans. He masterminded his plan for the Jews using the same techniques the Europeans used.
    It’s time we put an end to these crimes.
    I just use History books filled with facts to point these things out to people who want to exclude Native Americans from their ancestors land.
    We are suppose to learn from our mistakes. These people apparently havent learned anything, because they are ignorant and unaware of our history.
    The people who need to seek help are those who are in denial like you. Not being able to accept reality or denying it, is a mental condition.
    Me I feel just fine because all my statements are backed up with facts from our History books, even you were unable to dispute that fact.
    ~
    You state, “nor have our decision makers all been white.”
    Yes, they have been all white! Only recently have people of color been accepted into leadership rolls. Read a history book

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    cookie
    May 5, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    Oh, yes you are holding all white people in this country accountable for “some” white people’s actions of yesterday Evelyn by suggesting that all white people in this country today are taking advantage of what their ancestors did and didn’t do simply by living here in the country THAT THEY WERE BORN IN! What would you have them do? Move to the country of their ancestors that they have no right to live in since they weren’t even born there but were born HERE instead??
    What about you? You claim that you are half Irish heritage so what gives YOU the right to remain here then?
    Yes, every INDIVIDUAL demonizes themself for their OWN actions but that doesn’t justify demonizing an entire race just because they are related racially. Especially when those deeds were committed in the past and not today.
    You really have a mental problem and need to seek help for your hatred of white people and living in past BS.

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    Evelyn
    May 7, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    cookie :
    Oh, yes you are holding all white people in this country accountable for “some” white people’s actions of yesterday Evelyn by suggesting that all white people in this country today are taking advantage of what their ancestors did and didn’t do simply by living here in the country THAT THEY WERE BORN IN! What would you have them do? Move to the country of their ancestors that they have no right to live in since they weren’t even born there but were born HERE instead??
    E
    They could stop the lies they use to demonize Mexicans.
    They could STFU!
    They could move to another country more to their liking where all the people are white and let the rest of America get on with our lives.
    They could crawl back under the rock they crawled out of and choke on their racism.
    I dont know and I dont care what they do. What I do know is they will never do again to Native Americans what their ancestors did. They will have to kill us all.
    We are many and this time we are well armed with collage degrees.
    The only thing racists have is their ignorance and a big mouth.
    ~
    What about you? You claim that you are half Irish heritage so what gives YOU the right to remain here then?
    E
    I DONT deny the fact that what our white ancestors did was wrong. I dont agree with what they did either. I accept the facts told in history books because I am not trying to do the same thing again. Many racists are.
    I believe Indigenous people should be able to migrate on this land as the indigenous of Australia do. So do most other indigenous people.
    http://cacreview.blogspot.com/2006/06/reclamation-of-indigenous-continent.html
    The rest of your incoherent ramblings are scary and well….incoherent so I cant address them.

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