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Latina Lista: News from the Latinx perspective > Life Issues > Education > Breaking News: A Sad Day for Undocumented Student Americans

Breaking News: A Sad Day for Undocumented Student Americans

LatinaLista — The Senate just completed voting on whether or not to go to the next stage in the debate to move the DREAM Act to the next level — it failed.
Sixty votes were needed to move the bill. If there is a silver lining in this day, it was that it failed by only 8 votes. Fifty-two Senators voted in favor of the bill.
The profound disappointment that must be felt by these young people is indescribable.
In his turn on the floor, Sen. Durbin described these children as “without a country.” Though the U.S. is the only home these children know, it is an uncertain future that the government has condemned these students to live.
What are the repercussions? Time will tell but it is always a sad day when compassion and common sense are overruled by intolerance and narrow sightedness.
We must ask ourselves in what direction is this country going and is it a direction we can be proud of?
There’s no doubt, the answer is no.

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Comment(74)

  • Avatar
    miguel
    October 24, 2007 at 12:43 pm

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    “Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
    With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

  • Avatar
    David O.
    October 24, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    Thank you for the update Marisa. I feel bad for all the Mariana’s out there who have been left in limbo.

  • Avatar
    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 24, 2007 at 2:53 pm

    That Lady Liberty poem is quite moving and represents a time in history when immigrants came to Ellis Island with complete documentation and an invitation from the United States to come here for a better way of life. Sorry, those days are long passed and will never return. In todays world we, as a nation, must be in full control of our border and regulate who can and who can’t enter this country. The Dream Act was, and I do mean was, another attempt to grant blanket amnesty to millions of illegal aliens on a path to citizenship. Once citizenship was obtained, with their sponsorship, they in turn would be allowed to bring as many family members to America as they desired. With this revolving wheel of continued immigration, our nation would go belly up in a short few years. Immigration needs checks and controls, not all come at once. The students that would have benefited from the Dream Act deserve citizenship, but a blanket amnesty will never get through the governmental process. Systems need to be put in place for these students to apply for legalization on a one on one basis. It has nothing to do with intolerance and narrow sightedness and everything to do with the rule of law.

  • Avatar
    David O.
    October 24, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    There was no documentation back then. Open borders, come one come all.

  • Avatar
    Wake Up and Smell the Menudo
    October 24, 2007 at 3:34 pm

    Is there anyone left alive that doens’t know how the gringo is?

  • Avatar
    Because it's not over until ...
    October 24, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    …and I do mean was
    You’re not the Fat Lady Are You?

  • Avatar
    E
    October 24, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    EYES OF TEXAS: I cannot tell exactly what you think about the history of U.S. immigration or how much you think you know about immigration, but I get the impression that at the very least, you do not want immigrants today to come to the United States, or at least not in large numbers.
    Immigration is very valuable to the U.S. But the U.S. immigration system is messed up. It has been for a long time. U.S. immigration, throughout its history and today, discriminates against people of color, lower-skilled workers, people from some poorer countries, and other historically marginalized groups. When U.S. immigration laws not only discriminate, but the policies are also inefficient, extremely slow, full of bureaucratic error, and very difficult to navigate, the laws need to be changed. Not on a case-by-case basis, as you suggest DREAMers should be working to receive status. But the laws historically, in a blanket manner, have exluded and made immigration with papers next to impossible for millions upon millions. The laws should be changed in a blanket manner, in a way that will bring an opportunity to earn or attain status to millions.
    Are you concerned with the numbers, period? Is that why you say that DREAMers, who graduate from high school in numbers around 65,000 per year, should apply on a case-by-case basis, so that the majority of DREAM students will continue to be kept in the shadows, marginalized, unable to attain or earn status? The status quo is no solution.
    The DREAM Act, and those who support it, will live on.

  • Avatar
    Chale Tamale
    October 24, 2007 at 3:47 pm

    Is there anyone who doesnt realize the u.s. is a gringo nation?
    hello, hello, hello – reality here. reality to ostrich. do you read me, over?

  • Avatar
    miguel
    October 24, 2007 at 4:12 pm

    National Origins Act of 1924 was an attempt to preserve the ethnic flavor of the “old immigrants”, those earlier settlers primarily from Northern and Western Europe. The perception existed that the newly arriving immigrants mostly from southern and eastern Europe were somehow inferior to those who arrived earlier.
    It seems that the fear that allowed this country to pass this act in the last century is still here and now directed south. The words of Lady Liberty are very moving. What is lost is the spirit of their meaning to us as a nation. Can those here opposed to illegal immigration point to one instance when they were denied one minute of your God given freedom? Has the whole country bought into flood of fear and now we have to kill the substance of the dreams that made this nation?

  • Avatar
    Horace
    October 24, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    “Immigration is very valuable to the U.S. But the U.S. immigration system is messed up. It has been for a long time. U.S. immigration, throughout its history and today, discriminates against people of color, lower-skilled workers, people from some poorer countries, and other historically marginalized groups.”
    First of all, aside for Asians, Latin Americans are already given the greatest number of visas to enter the U.S., so your argument that the past is a measure of the present is completely wrong.
    Secondly, this country has got a right to consider the economics of bringing in unskilled and illeducated. Importing impoverished and unskilled people only creates a class dependent upon the state. It is bad policy to import ignorance and poverty, and every country in the world takes this into consideration and makes a point of denying entry of such people. The welfare of the citizens of all countries always consider there citizens before the candidate immigrant. I’m sorry, but that’s self-preservation and just common sense. We have a welfare system in this country and it would be suicidal of this country to add to its beneficiaries.
    Lastly, it seems to me that Mexico could benefit from having U.S. educated high school graduates in their society, as the average Mexican never makes it that far. Remember the old saw, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king? The same truth holds in Mexico. The U.S. is doing Mexico favor enough by letting these kids stay in our country and obtain a free education, as there is no constitutional right to an education (check it out, its true), despite some idiotic judicial rulings that have implied so. I’m certain that Mexico (the predominant source of illegal immigration) wouldn’t educate Guatamalan, or El Salvadoran, or even American kids in their schools. If a illegal alien in Mexico would apply for schooling in that country, he would be immediately deported upon discovery. It’s unreasonable that our illegal aliens should expect us to aid and abet them by giving them an education.
    You argue that this is the only country that they’ve known, but isn’t that the case of adult illegal aliens who enters the U.S.? Most don’t even speak English, don’t understand the culture, legal sytem or our system of government. Some immigrants, legal or not, adapt and learn. Being high school educated, these kids know more than their countrymen and thus have an employment advantage. At least these kids understand Spanish when they return to Latin America. It is Mexico’s responsibility to educate its nationals, and Americans will not have this responsibility imposed upon them. I’m sorry, but as a taxpayer, I do not wish to pay taxes to educate or support illegal aliens.
    Our democracy has spoken through our congress. You may not like it, but that’s the way it is. Accept it. May these kids make the best of their opportunities in Mexico. I lived in Germany for five years. I learned the culture and adapted to my surroundings. Repatriated Mexican nationals can do the same thing.

  • Avatar
    MLK
    October 24, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    I Have a Dream
    LooL!

  • Avatar
    sick-freak
    October 24, 2007 at 9:35 pm

    Marisa, do yourself a favor and quit refering to the statements of Dick Durbin. Have you forgotten how he compared our soldiers to Nazis?
    Evreyone else…America does and will always welcome LEGAL immigrants from all over the world. The (bad) Dream Act would have been a slap in face to all those who came here and became citizens the right way…by following the laws of this great country!
    If we stay alert we can keep pressuring our elected officials (at least those that listen to the voice of the people) the kill this thing each time it comes up.

  • Avatar
    Marisa
    October 25, 2007 at 6:07 am

    Uh, Sick-Freak,
    Again people like you refuse to see the reality of the situation.
    It’s no slap in the face to the legal immigrants because these children had no choice but to come.
    But you don’t see that because it’s so much more fun to play the part of the “Enforcer.”
    Life is not as simple or as black and white as you paint. There are challenges and struggles people face all the time. This was an opportunity to help those most vulnerable to gain some traction in life.
    Your kind of views set this country back 100 years and if only for that reason I will keep speaking out.
    I, for one, don’t want to live in the past but create a better future.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    October 25, 2007 at 8:14 am

    Perhaps as Eyes suggested, each should be taken on a case by case basis. I don’t think that kids who came with their parents at age 15 for example should be considered in any Dream Act legislation or some 30 year old illegal alien. Perhaps only those that came as toddlers should be considered but I think the rules should be tough and the time involved to gain a path to citizenship lengthy.
    One thing I totally object to is them being able to sponsor their families just because they gained citizenship. That would only increase our population more and reward those parents who brought them here illegally in the first place. That and a few other amnesty type deals is what brought this bill down. I think the qualification for in-state tuition and being able to apply for grants and loans which should be reserved for only U.S. citizens is another thing that brought this bill down.
    They went for the whole enchilada and that is what turned Americans off and was relayed to our politicians. Many of our politicans could see just how far the benefits of this bill would go too and therefore they voted it down.

  • Avatar
    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 25, 2007 at 9:33 am

    I am pro-immigration, as are most Americans, but it has to be legally. The U.S. does need a certain number of legal immigrants, but that number must be managed and controlled. The problem with our wide open borders allowing millions of people to enter the U.S. illegally is insane. All nations have the right and responsilility to it’s citizens to secure it’s borders and control the number of people entering that nation in a manner that is controlled by immigration laws.
    As for the students that were brought here illegally by their parents, they do need a way to become citizens, but the flawed Dream Act, that was basically a blanket amnesty, was not the way. The Dream Act was too full of loop holes that could have lead to millions of unqualified illegals getting amnesty through fraud and counterfeit documents. Americans, including legal immigrants, will never accept and continue to defeat all attempts to reward illegal aliens a blanket amnesty in any form. To create a better future for all in this nation, we must learn from our past when a blanket amnesty was given to millions of illegal aliens which only caused another massive wave of illegal aliens to enter our country. That type of mistake will never happen again as long as American citizens continue to stand together and make our voices heard.
    The immigrants that entered America through Ellis Island did have to have some documentation to verify their name and point of origin. Some already had citizen sponsors and prearranged jobs waiting for them. It was not just a uncontrolled mass invasion that the U.S. did not see coming. They came here to become American citizens and assimilate to a new way of life that included learning English as quickly as possible and giving 100% of their allegiance to their new home country–America. They did continue to practice many aspects of their native country amongst family and friends, but in the public forum, they were proud to show everyone how American they had become. Those traits are not apparent with todays immigrants that continue to show allegiance to their country of origin, by protesting in our streets waving foriegn flags, demanding that the U.S. change our laws to fit their circumstance and spitting in the face of a country that they shouldn’t be in to begin with. If any of this sounds familiar, then you know why a blanket amnesty will never happen.
    One last point, we will find a way to help the students find their dream, but with measures that focus only on them and not end up benefitting those who do not qualify. I believe, and most of America believes, these young adults deserve a chance to reach their goals and have good lives, but it must be done carefully and without benefitting those that would not qualify.

  • Avatar
    sick-freak
    October 25, 2007 at 12:27 pm

    Here is something from 100 years ago. Still sounds fair to me.
    “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” Theodore Roosevelt 1907

  • Avatar
    miguel
    October 25, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    sick-freak wrote:
    Here is something from 100 years ago. Still sounds fair to me.
    “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” Theodore Roosevelt 1907
    It is fair but who today is willing to give immigrants of today a chance to prove themselves. They have all been included in the negative view pushed by our media or what makes CNN and the millions that are trying to make it as quoted above are caught up in the inclusive trashing of all as one.
    Yes a few do show up on CNN to fuel the dominant negative view here but what of the millions just looking for a chance? Are you willing to give it?

  • Avatar
    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 25, 2007 at 1:17 pm

    I have seen the Roosevelt statement many many times in the past couple of years and I agree fully that it applies now as much as it did then, even more so. The majority of immigrants in the early 1900’s were eager to be an American citizen in every aspect and was proud to be recognized as such. Today things are quite different when you have legalized immigrant citizens banning together with illegal aliens and protesting against American laws, demanding that America change to accommodate their circumstances and basically refusing to assimilate. Could you imagine 10 to 15,000 American citizens marching through the streets of Mexico City making such demands while waving the Stars and Stripes. It would not be tolerated and a lot of the marchers would be arrested or gunned down in the streets. It would be considered an invasion trying to over throw the government of Mexico.
    Most everyone here keeps insinuating how mean and evil these American gringos are, but fail to see we are more tolerant and willing to accept the view points of others than any other country in the world.

  • Avatar
    Carlos
    October 25, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    Complete documentation, Eyes of Texas? Bull! Almost *nobody* in the Ellis Island wave came with documentation of any sort. Nor did the immigrants in the 1800’s.
    Did the Anglos who came sweeping into Texas and Arizona in the mid-1800’s “show their papers” before they came flooding in? Did they show their documents before they invaded Mexico and seized the entire SW, imposing a “border” out of thin air to block the movements of people who’d been passing through that corridor for centuries?
    My family was tilling crops and moving throughout Arizona and California long before the Mexican War and that “border”– imposed by Anglos who were very much “undocumented,” mind you– cut them off. And the treaty signed after the Mexican War guarantees our rights to our residences, our culture, our celebrations, our use of español in public and our basic rights in our traditional homelands in the SW.
    Don’t *ever* go into a place like Arizona or California, and tell my family or other Latinos there that we are undocumented and don’t have a right to be there. We were there before the Anglos came sweeping in, we founded the towns and cities, we were attacked as a people before, during and after the Mexican War, and now we’re demanding that nuestros derechos be honored.
    Lo comprende, Eyes of Texas? Espero que si, porque el día pronto viene cuando es *nosotros* que controlamos el gobierno en esta región. Vamos a gobernar con justicia, pero no vamos a aguantar ni un día más, la arrogancia de los Anglos contra nuestra gente!

  • Avatar
    Carlos
    October 25, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    BTW EOT, Teddy Roosevelt was also a rampant imperialist, who had participated directly in the Spanish-American War– which itself had followed in the wake of the annexation of Hawaii, not exactly with the consent of the native Hawaiians– and even for his own time, was rabidly racist against Blacks and Mexicans.
    You seem to forget again, we’re not just your garden-variety “immigrants” EOT– we were here in the SW for a long time before you Anglos *invaded us* in a war. You dare call us invaders, amigo? Well, in the Mexican War, we experienced the real thing, at hour hands. Don’t go wagging a finger at us today.
    Otra vez, hemos estado aquí desde siglos, *antes de los Anglos*, y no vamos a aguantar los ataques ignorantes y arrogantes contra nuestra gente en las tierras que hemos habitado desde tantos siglos. Respetenos, y les vamos a respetar.

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Carlos;
    Alta California (Upper California) was formed in 1804 when the province of California, then a part of the Spanish colony of New Spain, was divided in two along the line separating the Franciscan missions in the north from the Dominican missions in the south. The southern part became the territory of Baja California. The two territories were also alternatively called Nueva California (New California; Upper California) and Vieja California (Old California; Lower California).
    Alta California—covering the land that belongs to the modern-day US states of California, Nevada, Utah, northern Arizona, western Colorado, and southwestern Wyoming—gained independence from Spain in 1821 upon conclusion of the Mexican War of Independence, following the war and short-lived inclusion in the First Empire (that Spain deemed illegal in 1822), but was not recognized as one of the newly independent United Mexican States. The 1824 Constitution refers to it as one of the territories. Mexico lost control of the territory as a result of the Mexican-American War (1846–1848).
    What gave Spain the rights to claim all this territory? What gave Mexico a right to claim all this territory when Spain left? There were less than 30,000 people living in these areas during Spain and Mexico’s Rule, which included both the descendants of European settlers from Spain and Mexico, and also included other European settlers, Mestizos, and local Native Americans who adopted Spanish culture and converted to Catholicism. Some white Americans (Yankees), who settled California spoke Spanish and lived as Mexicans, are considered Californios.
    At first, Spanish officials encouraged Mexicans from the northern and western provinces, as well Mexico promoted other Latin Americans, notably from Peru and Chile, to settle in California before the U.S. annexed the province in 1848.
    Much of Californio society lived at or near the many Missions, which were established in the 18th and 19th centuries. There were 21 Missions under the Roman Catholic church along the fabled route, El Camino Real).
    Substantial changes occurred during the second quarter of the 19th century. Mexican independence from Spain in 1821 marked the end of European rule in California; the missions faded in importance under Mexican control while ranching and trade increased. By the mid-1840s, the increased presence of Americans made the northern part of the state diverge from southern California, where the Spanish-speaking “Californios” dominated.
    The “Californios,” as they were known, consisted of about 800 families, mostly concentrated on a few large ranchos. About 1,300 Americans and a very mixed group of about 500 Europeans, scattered mostly from Monterey to Sacramento dominated trading as the Californios dominated ranching
    What of all the Russian colonies along the coast line of northern California?

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    Carlos said:
    And the treaty signed after the Mexican War guarantees our rights to our residences, our culture, our celebrations, our use of español in public and our basic rights in our traditional homelands in the SW.
    The treaty signed was for the families that were now on this side of the border, not for any and all in Mexico. Thus only giving rights to those in my previous post, Californios, Tejanos, NOT the citizenry of Mexico. There were less than 4,000 Tejanos in 1821 living in the Republic of Texas. Less than 30,000 living north of the now border at the time of 1821.

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 2:44 pm

    With your remark of “We were there before the Anglos came sweeping in, we founded the towns and cities”, are you then stating you are of Spanish descent and not Mexican descent?
    What of the Chinese who found the Northern California coast in 498 AD, what of the migration of Asian and Anglo Europeans across the land bridge 13,000 years ago? What of all the other explorers during European exploration of the 1530’s – 1765? What of the Native Indian tribes at the time of first European contact?

  • Avatar
    Spencer
    October 25, 2007 at 3:22 pm

    Eyes of Texas, you’ve referred more than once here that you think certain children of undocumented immigrants ought to have a way to normalize their status but you criticize the DREAM Act. You say there is potential for fraud, which is ridiculous because they would have to graduate from high school, take the SAT/ACT to be accepted to a university, and have good moral standing, among other controls. But anyway, if you support the goal of it, then what do you propose instead? There are thousands of innocent lives in the balance here who are waiting for solutions. You’ve spent a lot of time opposing one, but what’s your solution to help these children reach their dreams?
    Concerning the issue of assimilation, people have been concerned about the assimilation of immigrants long before Roosevelt. Benjamin Franklin had some pretty hateful things to say about my German and Irish ancestors in Pennsylvania. He said if we didn’t stop these Germans and Irish from immigrating, it would destroy America. Clearly, he was wrong–just as you are about today’s immigrants. In fact, studies confirm that assimilation today is no different than it’s ever been: Immigrants bring their culture and language to our country. Some words, foods and holidays are adopted by all of America such as St. Patricks day and sauerkraut. The descendents of immigrants pass down certain aspects of their heritage many generations and hold their ancestry close, but by the second and third generation, the descendents are also still American in everyway. You’re sounding the alarm because you falsely think that children of the first generation will assimilate at the same rate as their parents. See the link on my blog to a study by Pew that shows that’s clearly not the case. Immigrants after the first generation are doing exactly what we want them too as they hold onto their culture and language so that it contributes to the melting pot that is America, while also learning English and united beyond the ideals of our country. However, the anti-immigrant rhetoric that some spread endangers ostracizing the immigrant community because why would someone want to assimilate and join a people that is not welcoming to them?
    As far as Ellis Island is concerned, my understanding is that as long as you didn’t have a weird disease, we welcomed them. Yes, as you mentioned yesterday, many people do wait and go through the red tape legally today. But that’s not realistic for many groups of people because the system is so biased against them. The people this country needs most are PhD’s and low-skill workers. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to immigrate here legally if you fit either of those descriptions. We either need to change the system, or tear down the poem on the statue of liberty because it sends a dishonest message. I support changing the system.

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    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 25, 2007 at 3:27 pm

    You seem to keep referring back to a time when no immigration laws existed and the law of the land was conquer and claim. All the issues are about today and where our nation is headed in the future. But, since you like to live in the past and identify yourself by who your ancestors were, do not expect any more respect than they were given. True. I did bring up Ellis Island, but I do not define myself by the people that got off those ships. I brought it up only to demonstrate a controlled point of entry into the U.S. where each person was accounted for and records were established. These immigrants did not swim acoss the Atlantic Ocean and sneak into America, they were invited and expected by our government prior to their arrival.
    As for your ancestors dwelling in the Southwest and portions of what was then Mexico, I’m sorry for their loss, but I had nothing to do with it and don’t really care what happened 100 years ago. You sound the same as Black-Americans of today demanding restitution because their ancestors were slaves. It’s best not to travel down an old unforgotten road or you may have to relive all the dumps and chuck holes again.
    The power structure of this nation is controlled by old white men and it always will be. Don’t be fooled into believing it will ever be otherwise, because if our government fails to meet the demands of American citizens, we the people will take control and weed out those that do not represent citizens of the United States of America.
    ps. Your last three lines are a prime example of what has generated a lot of the issues we have today. You were responding to my posts in perfectly good English then threw in some gibberish that I will have to have translated. Your being bi-lingual is a great asset and am sure has benefitted you greatly in life, but it is a large part of our national problem as a society that is based on another language–English.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    Spencer, with your comment of “many people do wait and go through the red tape legally today. But that’s not realistic for many groups of people because the system is so biased against them. The people this country needs most are PhD’s and low-skill workers. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to immigrate here legally if you fit either of those descriptions. We either need to change the system, or tear down the poem on the statue of liberty because it sends a dishonest message. I support changing the system.”
    What is your take on this Will the Short-Sightedness of US Immigration Policy be the Downfall of our Economy?, do you condemn Canada and Spain or Condone Canada and Spain?

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    Spencer
    October 25, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    It’s an interesting post. I wouldn’t use the words condone or condemn but I certainly won’t blame Canada and Spain for reaching out and doing what’s best for their economies, especially when it also helps Mexico’s. I wish the US would do the same, and it would also create a more regulated workforce so that the exploitation of workers would be minimalized.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 6:02 pm

    Doesn’t our H-1, 2, and various other visas do the same that Spain and Canada are wanting to do? Why is it you can’t blame Canada and Spain for reaching out, when all they are doing is the same thing the USA has been trying to do for years? Why can’t Spain allow the ‘Illegal’ Africans do those jobs, or at the very least ‘Legalize’ them?

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    Spencer
    October 25, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    It is an issue of how good, or poor we are at doing it. For example, each year we take about 66,000 high skill (H2B) visas—hurting our tech industry. If Einstein had tried to immigrant today, he likely would have been denied. The other visas are similar, we do not accept enough and we do not accept them quickly enough to meet the demands of our economy. That’s why I support and expanded guest-worker program and AG-Jobs program.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Back to the Dream Act topic, Children in the USA are entitled to an education through the K-12th grade.
    Just read the words of Patricia De Oliveira:
    As a student, I am not going to let these Senators decide my future. They will NOT take my future from me. We are going to fight until we have the right to an education. We are in this until we win. That’s the bottom line.
    According to her words Dream Acters don’t have a right to an education, which if they were in the USA as children they have the K-12 education. There is no RIGHT for them to go to College, College is a choice. Only those that can afford to go to College go, whether they are legal Citizens/Residents or Students here on a Visa, or whether they are ‘Illegal Immigrants’, if they can afford to go to College then they usually go. Mariana Zamboni is the perfect example. Once these persons obtain a degree, it actually increases there percentage of applying and then becoming a legal resident and possibly later a legal citizen.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 25, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Spencer:
    Explain then why the farmers are not useing the H-2 visa? Since the visas are in place for a purpose, why are they not being used?
    The 65,000 H-1 visas are gone within one day, they are gone and sold to applicants by middlemen making a profit selling to the highest bidder, mostly to people in India that never make it to the USA due to off shoring.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    October 25, 2007 at 7:07 pm

    Spencer, first of all we aren’t talking about “immgrants” here but illegal aliens. Are you purposely blurring the lines between the two?
    We have a population driven econonmy via illegal immigration and that won’t good down the road because we already have 300 million people in this country and we are already seeing overcrowded, schools, jails and hospitals. Gridlock on our highways and the depletion of our natural resouces. I support a smaller economy to fit a smaller population for those reasons.
    It doesn’t matter if our immigration requirements are tough or even unfair. They are what they are and that doesn’t give illegals the right to come here anyway, not until or if such laws are changed.

  • Avatar
    Spencer
    October 26, 2007 at 9:48 am

    Well that’s an argument. But the fact is, our population is declining without immigration. More workers equals more economic output. As it is, we don’t have enough legal workers without undocumented migrants because there are not enough visas, especially not available fast enough. Until we change that, it’s hard for me to get really upset about illegal immigration because we need the workers and they need the jobs. Once we fix the system, we can talk again, but I favor a stong economy and that requires more workers than current law allows for.

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    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 26, 2007 at 10:13 am

    These undocumented migrants, as you choose to call them, are actually drawing more out of the system than they are putting in. With tax payer funded social services available to all of them it is you and I that are having to subsidize the difference between what they earn and what it takes to live here. The higher their numbers, the more we will be taxed, especially if Hillary takes office. She is a socialist through and through and believes the middle class should have less and the lower class should have more by distributing the earnings of the middle class down to the lower class. The U.S. economy is strong enough to survive without an extra 30 million illegal aliens(true tag) crowding our schools, our hospitals, our highways and sucking off the tet of America.

  • Avatar
    David O.
    October 26, 2007 at 10:45 am

    From: EYES OF TEXAS
    These undocumented migrants, as you choose to call them, are actually drawing more out of the system than they are putting in. With tax payer funded social services available to all of them it is you and I that are having to subsidize the difference between what they earn and what it takes to live here. The higher their numbers, the more we will be taxed, especially if Hillary takes office. She is a socialist through and through and believes the middle class should have less and the lower class should have more by distributing the earnings of the middle class down to the lower class. The U.S. economy is strong enough to survive without an extra 30 million illegal aliens(true tag) crowding our schools, our hospitals, our highways and sucking off the tet of America.
    Can you provide some documentation on your statements? Thank you.

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    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 26, 2007 at 11:18 am

    Someone here asked for a solution since the flawed Dream Act was defeated. As I have stated before, these young adults that were brought here illegally as children do deserve a pathway to citizenship. The method to do this is not going to be any form of mass amnesty and will have to be handled on a case by case method which insures the ineligible don’t benefit by applying with false or counterfeit documents.
    So, lets try this. The stipulations involve college or military service, both of which require mucho(HA!) paperwork. Couldn’t part of that paperwork also include forms to begin the process toward citizenship. Of coarse, all documents must be verified which should be no problem for a student that has lived most of their life in the U.S.. There will be special cases that will require more background investigation and more time, but that is true with many official legal forms used by the government. If the process needs to be handled earlier, it could be done in their senior year of high school when most students decide whether to go to college or serve in the military. My foster son, born of a Mexican couple here in Houston and was unable to care for him, does not face a lot of the problems the illegals do, but it is sometime irritating being asked questions and having to prove his citizenship.

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    Spencer
    October 26, 2007 at 11:24 am

    Gladly. Happy reading:
    http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/programs/immigration/publications/immigrants_in_arizona.judith_gans.july2007.pdf
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf
    And there are plenty more studies where these came from. P.S. I use the term ‘Undocumented Immigrants’ because I think groups of people have the right to be called what they want, just as I expect you to call me the name of my choosing. If ‘illegal’ or black is offensive to some people, it’s a pretty simple way to show respect to someone to call them African Americans or Undocumented immigrants.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 26, 2007 at 12:37 pm

    Spencer:
    Keep in mind that brokers are obtaining the visas, selling them to companies which than use them for off shoring, while the broker makes a profit and charges the company for the visa and the person in which is using the visa they usually extract a percentage, best way to explain it is by calling these brokers Temporary Employment Agencies.. Why do you think you press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish? Why is it when you press 1, you talk to somebody in India? More visas only increases the amount of off shoring, these people will never see the USA at all, and defeats the purpose of the visa increase and the purpose of the visa all together. Companies and farmers both use brokers so that they do not have to supply the requirements for the visa or the person. Thus increasing the amount of visas per year has actually an adverse effect and does nothing for the economy other than making it cheaper for off shoring, Corporations make the profit, while the rest are left footing the bills.
    I say get rid of the Brokers and make the companies/farmers actually use the system they way it was intended to be used and a lot of our problems would be solved.

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    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 26, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    David O, Go to washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html for only one study of cost of illegal aliens to the American tax payer. I entered “cost of illegal immigrants” and found several studies made by various individuals or groups. Depends on who you want to believe.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 26, 2007 at 1:03 pm

    Here is a link (Questions and Answers: Immigration ) for you both, David O. and EOT, to look at from Spencers web Blog. I think it answers some of the Q&A about ‘Illegal Immigrants’ which falls into what EOT states “Depends on who you want to believe.” I believe the reporting in the Q&A has only scratched the top and never went into the depths it should have with some of its answers, as some are just repeated rhetoric.

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    Frank
    October 26, 2007 at 3:16 pm

    Our birthrates are still nearlly double what our death rates are in this country. We could stand to be at replacement level or better yet at below replacement level with 300 million people in this country already. Most of the increases in our population or due to immigrants both legal and illegal. We don’t need it!
    I have stated before that our economy is being population driven now and much of it from illegal immigration. A population driven economy will spell disaster for us down the road in the way of the depletion of our natural resources and quality of life. A smaller economy to fit a smaller population based on citizen and controlled numbers of legal immigrant labor just makes sense.

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    EYES OF TEXAS
    October 26, 2007 at 3:21 pm

    Spencer, you couldn’t have found a better spin master than our government sources. Of coarse our government does not object to illegal immigration. The Repubs for the cheap labor force and the Demwits for building a larger voting base has been the norm for years. I personally can see and understand figures when presented in dollars and cents and tend to believe these figures as accurate. My beliefs are also based on illegal families that I know personally. They are not shy about giving information about their incomes and which tax payer supported programs they recieve. So, unless you think the U.S. government doesn’t lie for it’s own benefit, be open to surveys conducted by independent sources.

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    Spencer
    October 26, 2007 at 4:33 pm

    I’m sorry but when making my opinions on an important issue such as this, I’m going to side with research by educated professional economists and policy makers over your anecdotal evidence based on encounters with a few families you know. Also, I presented two studies, the second of which was from the school of public policy at the University of Arizona–not the government.

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    Frank
    October 26, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Whether or not illegals are a net benefit or gain in taxes vs costs is not the number one thing that drives me against illegal immigration.
    It is about uncontrolled population growth and mostly from just one ethnic group and all the drawbacks to that. Number one to me is the rule of law.

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    Horace
    October 26, 2007 at 10:02 pm

    I agree with you Frank, but another thing galls me, thats the fact that foreigners are trying to control our immigration policies. When foreigners can come into this country and conspire with citizen ethnic groups to subvert our sovereignty in cooperation with our politicians, the citizens have to revolt and tell them who is boss.

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    Deport Lou Dobbs
    October 27, 2007 at 12:22 am

    I would love to see this up again for consideration as soon as posible but with a few new provisions.
    *have it apply to all children of all immigrants and not just undocumented migrants.
    *include an option for community service. Perhaps 2 years cleaning up the fragile desert landscape as just one example.

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    Daniel Maldonado
    October 27, 2007 at 12:38 am

    A college education should be free for anyone who wants it.

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    Frank
    October 27, 2007 at 8:15 am

    Oh, so we should just let the entire world’s population in here and give them an education at our expense? What are we, the whole world’s welfare teet?

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    Horace
    October 27, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    College educations are never free. Moldonado, who do you propose should pay for this chicken in every pot socialist idea?

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    Look up, Look down, Look at my Thumb, Gee, You're Dumb
    October 27, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    LoL @ “socialist” hahah.
    Oh ya, you’ve got capital. You big industrial magnate, you.
    Worker A : h.s., g.e.d. makes 14.00 / hr for the rest of his life. Well, not really because so long as interest rates are positive future dollars must be discounted. This is not to be confused with inflation which, along with the devaluation of the dollar, makes worker A even poorer.
    (if you factor “opportunity cost” “A” gets reamed for life, much like yourself.)
    😀
    Worker B gets free higher level education. This means that society – all of society – reaps the exponential benefits of worker B’s labor for the next 40 years, give or take.
    Actually, A is a cost, if not a drain to society, when compared to B.
    Many countries do indeed offer free higher lever education:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_education

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    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 8:17 pm

    “Free” education is, of course, not free, but merely provided for by taxation.
    Growing my A/C company took a lot of work. Many day laborers helped me get started. In fact, at the yard I used to go to get my helpers I was very well liked and all the guys knew me as “Daniel, el del Aire Accondicionado.”
    Over the years I developed close friendships with my helpers. Of course, I hired guys with papers, too.
    Did you withhold your payroll taxes from these guys? Did you pay the taxes to IRS and the State? If not then how do you propose to pay for a free higher education for everyone when you are not paying yours or your employees shares?

  • Avatar
    Licensed to: ChicanoForums.com | All Rights Reserved
    October 27, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    You are not allowed to use my writings, lectures, essays, nome de plume or the likeness of VC or Vitual Chicano.
    Further, you did not credit me or link to my site. Which mightve put me in a nicer mood.
    For people who are always harping about “legal” and “the law” it doesnt seem to bother you that you have violated Copyright laws.

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    Must I teach the Whiteboy Everything?
    October 27, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    First, you worry about your own taxes and I’ll worry about mine.
    EVERYONE and their effen grandmother knows how to obtain a T.I.N.
    Are you guys really this dumb?
    hahah daaamn!
    A free education can be paid for in any number of ways. Taxes is just one option.
    B will earn and, hence, pay more in taxes than A will. Take the cost from that different.

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    Horace
    October 27, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    “You are not allowed to use my writings, lectures, essays, nome de plume or the likeness of VC or Vitual Chicano.
    Further, you did not credit me or link to my site. Which mightve put me in a nicer mood.
    For people who are always harping about “legal” and “the law” it doesnt seem to bother you that you have violated Copyright laws.”
    What the hell is this guy talking about? He doesn’t reference anything specific and I don’t see anything in this series of commentaries that suggest that someone has been violating copyright laws.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    October 27, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    “You are not allowed to use my writings, lectures, essays, nome de plume or the likeness of VC or Vitual Chicano.
    Further, you did not credit me or link to my site. Which mightve put me in a nicer mood.
    For people who are always harping about “legal” and “the law” it doesnt seem to bother you that you have violated Copyright laws.”
    What the hell is this guy talking about? He doesn’t reference anything specific and I don’t see anything in this series of commentaries that suggest that someone has been violating copyright laws.

  • Avatar
    Horace Attorney at Law
    October 27, 2007 at 9:23 pm

    Copyright expert are you now, Horace?

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    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 9:30 pm

    Since you then must be a licensed contractor here in CA, how about a 1099 at the end of the year, better yet how about your I-9 form for them, Sorry Daniel, must I teach the Chicano everything?
    The term Fair Use is a defense against a charge of copyright infringement.
    FAIR USE:
    Fair Use exceptions to copyright protection allow others to use small portions of copyrighted material in order to criticize, review or parody a copyrighted work without permission of the author.
    Fair use does not allow others to copy copyrighted works in their entirety.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    Actually are YOU really this dumb… it’s a I.T.I.N. number for your workers.
    What is an ITIN used for?
    ITINs are for federal tax reporting only, and are not intended to serve any other purpose. AN ITIN DOES NOT AUTHORIZE WORK IN THE U.S. or provide eligibility for Social Security benefits or the Earned Income Tax Credit. ITINs are not valid identification outside the tax system.
    IRS issues ITINs to help individuals comply with the U.S. tax laws, and to provide a means to efficiently process and account for tax returns and payments for those not eligible for Social Security Numbers.
    Let me repeat it AN ITIN DOES NOT AUTHORIZE WORK IN THE U.S.

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 9:55 pm

    Free education (or subsidized education) is education that is provided at no cost to students. Although primary school and other comprehensive or compulsory education is free in many countries, the Nordic countries are all examples of countries where education is free all the way up including post-graduate studies.[1] In Sweden and Finland, there is not even a fee for foreign students enrolling at a university (exchange or not), although they may not be eligible for the monthly study allowance and loan most nationals are.[2][3]
    Several other European countries, such as England and Germany, have had a history of some forms of free education, as well as Australia. In the 1970s the Australian Labor Party led by Prime Minister Gough Whitlam introduced reforms which ensured free tertiary education. These reforms were removed later in the 1980s by the Bob Hawke Labor government. Students and radicals played an important part in forcing the Whitlam government to implement the free education system as well as opposing the introduction of tertiary fees in the 1980s.
    Nowadays, as for many parts of the world outside Scandinavia, free education usually comes to students in the form of scholarship and grants, if they cover all or most of students’ expenses while at school. Patrons for grants and scholarships may be individuals, institutions (often the school itself), advocacy initiatives, etc. They may have economic (e.g. tax-deductibility), humanitarian, charitable or religious reasons. Ireland has free education at all levels, including college and university which is also free.
    What exactly is it that you are advocating Maldonado? The fact that Europe has some free higher education in the Nordic countries? The fact that ‘DREAMers’ don’t get scholarships or grants? Yet it is up to the university to grant economic (e.g. tax-deductibility), humanitarian, charitable or religious reasons to allow a person to attend.
    So you see, anybody can attend college, its all a choice that they themselves make, some of them will have to pay, while others may go for free.

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    I told you, my taxes are my business
    October 27, 2007 at 10:04 pm

    My 1099’s are none of your business.
    I did not say TINs authorize work. You asked if my undocumented workers paid taxes and I replied.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 10:28 pm

    SO SUE ME!! You’ll find rather quickly I don’t take to threats.
    It’s not a TIN it is a ITIN, get it straight.
    Your the one spouting about free education and all, I simply asked are you and your employees paying your shares to support your ideals?
    Besides, if you actually read through what I posted, you will note that your name is in the paragraph, thus referring to you.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 11:06 pm

    Your comprehension skills are pretty pathetic, I asked, “Did YOU withhold YOUR payroll taxes FROM these guys? Did YOU pay the taxes to IRS and the State?”
    So you see I did not ask if your employees paid taxes, I simply asked if you had paid their withholding from their paychecks to the State or to the IRS?

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 27, 2007 at 11:24 pm

    What happened to your socialistic view of college should be free, with your statement of “You are not a judge.
    This is the last clown who used my work:”
    Seems now you are a capitalist, so which is it?? Socialist or Capitalist??

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 28, 2007 at 12:25 am

    Maldonado States: “You asked if my UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS paid taxes and I replied.”
    So you openly admit to hiring ‘undocumented workers’,…. isn’t that some violation of the law?? Talk about unfair business practices, I’m sure the labor board would love to hear about this, or even ICE, since you admit you hired them knowingly. How about the CSLB, I’m sure they might pull you license for it. Better yet your competition, sure they could sue you for unfair business practices.

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    Daniel Maldonado
    October 28, 2007 at 12:32 am

    johnny chingas: ”
    What happened to your socialistic view of college should be free, with your statement of “You are not a judge.
    This is the last clown who used my work:”
    Seems now you are a capitalist, so which is it?? Socialist or Capitalist??”
    I never stated that I am a socialist. In fact, I’ve always been a centrist but i sometimes lean more to the left.
    I am not an expert on socialism but I do not know of any cases where a socialist was forced to waive his intellectual property rights.

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    Daniel Maldonado
    October 28, 2007 at 12:38 am

    Beavis: ”
    Maldonado States: “You asked if my UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS paid taxes and I replied.”
    So you openly admit to hiring ‘undocumented workers’,…. isn’t that some violation of the law?? Talk about unfair business practices, I’m sure the labor board would love to hear about this, or even ICE, since you admit you hired them knowingly. How about the CSLB, I’m sure they might pull you license for it. Better yet your competition, sure they could sue you for unfair business practices.”
    Yes, of course, I openly admit to hiring undocs. With great pride, I might add.
    CSLB cares about worker’s comp, not about immigrant status. This I know first hand. They do not suspend licenses for hiring undocs.
    Why would you assume this is an unfair business practice? Their taxes were paid and I have worker’s comp. As far as wages are concerned, most undocs who have worked for me earn more than the white guys do.
    Tell chertoff he has a cute ass.

  • Avatar
    Daniel Maldonado
    October 28, 2007 at 12:44 am

    Butthead: ”
    Your comprehension skills are pretty pathetic, I asked, “Did YOU withhold YOUR payroll taxes FROM these guys? Did YOU pay the taxes to IRS and the State?”
    So you see I did not ask if your employees paid taxes, I simply asked if you had paid their withholding from their paychecks to the State or to the IRS?”
    WTF do you think TINs are for? And it’s still the same thing, 6 one way, half dozen another.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    October 28, 2007 at 7:14 am

    It is against the law to hire illegal aliens whether or not taxes are withheld and paid to the government by the employer.

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    Liquidmicro
    October 28, 2007 at 10:04 am

    I think, from the CSLB website, that the last paragraph is pretty interesting/telling.
    What is the CSLB doing to stop illegal activity?
    The Statewide Investigative Fraud Team (SWIFT) is set up to monitor and combat illegal activity. SWIFT has teams around the state that conduct stings on a regular basis and sweep construction sites.
    SWIFT also conducts joint operations and sweeps with other state agencies dedicated to combating underground activity. The partnerships with other agencies raise the penalties and fines for violators by increasing the scope of violations to include taxes, illegal payrolls, workers compensation and worker safety.

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 28, 2007 at 10:23 am

    Maldonado states: I am not an expert on socialism but I do not know of any cases where a socialist was forced to waive his intellectual property rights.
    Your letter, from which I used a paragraph, is an open letter to the public for in it you stated: So I think it’s the right time to say thank you to everyone who has supported Chicano Forums.
    Where exactly is the ‘Intellect’ in it? Property Rights disappear the moment the letter was made public.
    SO SUE ME!!

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 28, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Dipstick:
    ITIN’s are for your employees to file Federal taxes at the end of the year, has nothing to do with you. You should have filed a 1099 form at the end of the year for them, if you paid them as Independent Contractors, or if you are paying them as employees, for which your ‘undocumented workers’ have no SS# or a forged SS#, you would file a W-2 to IRS and State. Do you have your W-4 on these employees? Are you really this ignorant as a business owner?

  • Avatar
    Daniel Maldonado
    October 28, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    Now you’re an accountant?
    I dont have time for your giddy boy butt today.
    just click HERE

  • Avatar
    Liquidmicro
    October 28, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    With remarks like this: I dont have time for your giddy boy butt today.
    You must have some deep hidden passion for homosexuality, SORRY I’m NOT YOUR GUY nor YOUR KIND. Best of luck in your search though, may all of your rainbows have a pot of boy butt in each, or at the very least a one eyed, one horned, purple people eater.

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