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Latina Lista: News from the Latinx perspective > Palabra Final > Politics > Mexico must put machismo pride aside and accept the Congressionally-revised Merida Initiative

Mexico must put machismo pride aside and accept the Congressionally-revised Merida Initiative

LatinaLista — The day before yesterday in Culiacan, Sinaloa seven federal agents were killed, presumably at the hands of the Sinaloa drug cartel.

In spite of this loss of life, the Attorney General of Mexico, Eduardo Medina Mora, assured a reporter during an interview that “although it doesn’t seem like it, all Mexicans are winning and are going to win” in combatting drug trafficking.”

Mexican federal agent reinforcements arrive in Culiacan.
(Source: La Jornada)

Medina Mora is correct when he says “it doesn’t seem like it.” The public murder of federal agents whose jobs are to root out and arrest these powerful drug traffickers almost seems too much for Mexican authorities to handle by themselves.
It’s no wonder they asked for monetary help from the US government. The money would surely help a cash-strapped government combat groups that appear better equipped with both weapons and manpower bought with the profits of illegal drug running.
Yet, it seems that no amount of money is worth being held accountable to another country.


Congress is set to pass a final aid package to Mexico called the Merida Initiative, but Congress has attached some strings to the package and revised it to the point that it riles the pride of Mexican politicians.
The original initiative was supposed to help Mexico obtain helicopters, improve intelligence sharing, and reduce the smuggling of high-powered weapons from the U.S. to Mexico. The Mexican government was supposed to receive $500 million the first year.
Yet, Congress reduced the amount to $350 million the first year and the kind of helicopters they want to help Mexico with are “used” helicopters.
It’s not the first time the US has given Mexico used helicopters. It was done once before and Mexico ended up having to return them because so many of them were crashing.
Also, Congress doesn’t want to hand the money over unless Mexico agrees to allow the US to “evaluate” how well they’re not only combatting drug traffickers but also addressing human rights abuses, judicial reforms and other issues.
Needless to say, coming from a country that sanctions the existence of Guantanamo Bay, Mexican officials are offended by the added stipulations.
It cuts to the very core of national pride and sovereignty. After all, no country likes to be told by another what to do. We don’t stand for it. Why should they?
Mexico is right to feel offended but there is a big difference. Mexico has a problem that is escalating out of control. It’s no longer confined to the traditional “turf areas.” It’s seeped into the suburbs of Mexico City and other major metropolitan towns, into the tourist spots and it flaunts its disrespect of law enforcement and authority.
Mexican officials need to put machismo pride aside and look at the bigger picture, but Congress also should reinstate the original promises of the Merida Initiative which Presidents Bush and Calderon agreed upon.
And while Mexico should be enraged that strings are attached to the aid package, they should be more enraged at themselves that they’ve allowed a minority culture of corruption to flourish and thrive in their country.
Congress should make Mexico accountable for human rights abuses and implementing judicial reforms and they should go one step farther — demand that Mexican officials root out and stop the most horrendous crime of the country that has been going on for the past 15 years — the Juarez murders.
Unless these strings are attached, it’s been proven that Mexican officials will exert little willpower to remedy these wrongs. For example, after 15 years, it’s curious that still no one has been identified as the culprits behind the killings of these young girls.
If $500 million lies in the balance, perhaps then Mexican officials will address Juarez and the other issues and finally resolve them with a little more speed — and in the process, clean up a country whose people have been waiting all their lives for their leaders to do.

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Comment(66)

  • Avatar
    Frank
    May 29, 2008 at 2:37 pm

    Mexican citizens violate our national pride and sovereingy with impunity on a daily basis by sneaking across our border illegally. Do I smell the stench of hypocricy here?

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    May 29, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    The stench is that of racism. The hypocrisy is how some people purposely ignore who buys the drugs. If the drug addicts in the U.S. disappeared, so would the drug dealers.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    May 29, 2008 at 4:45 pm

    Why should Mexico answer to the U.S.?
    I have dual U.S. -MX citizenship.
    The United States’ human rights record is appalling. The International Red Cross has filed war crimes charges in Germany against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Gonzales, Gen. Sanchez and others. These people now have to avoid ever landing in Germany in order to escape arrest.
    In addition, the U.S. is on Canada’s terror watch list.
    Then there is Guantanamo, CU.
    Some Mexican congresspersons and Senate members believe the money would be better spent by the U.S. halting the arms flow into Mexico.
    Some of these police and federal agents were gunned down by a 50 cal.!!!
    And we all know that Mexicans drug gangs are fighting over who will supply the U.S. with its 300 billion dollar a year drug habit.
    Many Mexican lawmakers want the U.S. to use that money to combat their demand for drugs.
    The last time the U.S. gave Mexico arms, Mexico used them on the Zapatistas in Chiapas, MX.
    Lastly, the term “Machismo” troubles me very much.
    It is the concept that men are superior to women.
    However, it has become synonymous with a drunk wife beater. And it is only used to describe MEXICAN men.
    Both the Mexican Senate and the Congress have women members. Are the ladies “Macho” too? Actually, in all honesty, I haven’t checked this lately and as elections go, well, I am no longer absolutely certain of this.

  • Avatar
    Marisa Treviño
    May 29, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    Daniel, You’re right. There are female members of the Mexican Congress but machismo, as I see it, is more of an attitude than a gender trait but I’ll concede the point. You’re also right in regard to the US violations, and I try to point that out too in the post, but unfortunately, we don’t have anybody who can hold any amount of money over our heads to mend our ways. I wonder if the Saudis did that with oil what they could do. At any rate, Mexico does need to start addressing these other issues and they’ve shown they’re not going to do it on their own unless they’re either trying to make a point or they want something else bad enough.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    May 29, 2008 at 5:55 pm

    “The stench is that of racism. The hypocrisy is how some people purposely ignore who buys the drugs. If the drug addicts in the U.S. disappeared, so would the drug dealers.”
    You are an ignorant fool, Evelyn. Drug use is on the rise in Latin America. If the U.S. stopped using illegal drugs, the price would drop and the drug peddlers would be hooking Mexicans on drugs and selling them cheap dope. The drug cartel wars with the Mexican government would continue and you wouldn’t be able to scapegoat the U.S. for Mexico’s culture of corruption. You are sooo stupid.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    May 29, 2008 at 11:37 pm

    I see your STILL DREAMING Horace….

  • Avatar
    Horace
    May 30, 2008 at 8:22 am

    “I have dual U.S. -MX citizenship.”
    As far as I’m concerned, Daniel, you are not a true American or a true Mexican. The U.S. government does not recognize dual citizenship, as it is impossible to have allegiance to two sovereign nations at once. Neither Mexican citizens, nor U.S. citizens should trust those who aren’t fully committed to their nations. When you took the oath of citizenship you promised sole allegiance to the U.S. It looks as though you lied. Commit to one or the other, but not both.

  • Avatar
    Marisa Treviño
    May 30, 2008 at 8:31 am

    Horace, I think you’re showing your age. In this global economy that is evolving, I think in the future citizenship of one country will be the exception rather than the rule.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    May 30, 2008 at 8:36 am

    Amazing isn’t it Horace how the subject of drug usage and dealing turned into using the word “racists” all of a sudden. What the hell has racism to do with any of this? Both the users and the sellers are at fault, not just the users.
    It was pointed out that Mexico’s national pride and soveirgnty is at stake here. LOL! Talk about hypocricy! As I said those worried about Mexico’s feelings don’t seem to care one iota about American’s feelings of having their national pride and soviergnty violated on a daily basis by Mexican citizens.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    May 30, 2008 at 1:04 pm

    “Horace, I think you’re showing your age. In this global economy that is evolving, I think in the future citizenship of one country will be the exception rather than the rule.”
    SURE, conflicts of loyalty are an age related phenomena. I suppose that the Constitution, being more than 220 years is outdated as well. I guess it explains a lot about why Hispanics can’t seem to understand how one nation is enough for most Americans, and that ours is a special nation among lesser nations.
    Contrary to your belief, Europeans still have pride in their individual nation states. Latin Americans, mostly comprising Hispanics, still cling tenaciously and xenophobically to their cultures and countries. Asian Indians and Pakistanis are very proprietary when it comes to their differences in religion, even to the point of verging on war. The Arab Middle East is in flames over tribal and religious differences. Russians and Chinese, the latter comprising over a billion people, are very nationalistic, indeed. The failure of Communism is only one example of the abject failure of globalization (remember the call to arms of “Workers of The World Unite”).
    While transnationalists have made such idealistic predictions and tried to stomp out these feelings, they continue to exist and as far as I can tell, will continue to do so in spite of so-called globalization.
    While mutual interests in unregulated commerce between nations grows, the human tendency for self-destiny within nation states is strong. The call for globalization has thus far failed to make all of us members of one giant worldwide colony of drones and attempting to do so is contrary to human nature.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    May 30, 2008 at 1:12 pm

    Questions and answers
    on
    dual US/other citizenship
    Last revised: 2006-09-10 16:10:28-0700
    I was recently told by a US customs official that the US doesn’t “recognize” dual citizenship. What gives?
    It depends on exactly what is meant by “recognizing” dual citizenship. If the official meant to say that dual US/other citizenship violates US law, he was, simply put, wrong. If he meant that foreign citizenship makes no difference under US law if one is also a US citizen, he was right.
    US citizenship law is primarily concerned with whether or not a given person holds US citizenship. If a person is a US citizen and is currently within the jurisdiction of the US, any other citizenship(s) he or she may hold are really not relevant in US law.
    A “dual citizen” has no special status in the US by virtue of holding citizenship in some other country too. In particular, if you are a dual citizen and get into some kind of legal trouble while in the US, you should not expect the US to acknowledge any efforts by consular officials of your other country of citizenship to intervene in your behalf.
    Also, when a “dual citizen” enters the US, he/she is expected to identify himself to US immigration and customs officials as a US citizen (not as a citizen of some other country) — and in cases where a passport is required to enter the US, a dual US/other citizen is expected to enter on a US passport, just like any other US citizen.
    I’ve heard of recent cases where dual US/other citizens briefly got into sticky situations while entering the US, when they attempted to identify themselves either as “dual” citizens or as citizens of another country. In former times (before the latest round of State Department policy reforms), attempting to enter the US on a foreign passport could even be used as “evidence” of intent to relinquish US citizenship. Although this apparently isn’t a danger any more, the best thing to do is probably to make life simple and assert only your US citizenship rights when entering the US.
    Remember that US immigration officers are primarily interested in determining whether a person wishing to enter the US should be let in. If you hold US citizenship, then you have a legal right to enter, remain in, and work in the US. Holding some other citizenship as well as US citizenship is completely irrelevant in this case, and if you make an issue of holding a second citizenship, you’re just making it more likely that US officials will think something is amiss.
    http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#recog

  • Avatar
    Challis
    May 30, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    Horace, I think I can see (what I think) is the idea behind what you are saying, but I certianly don’t agree with the way you said it.
    My husband is in this country legally as a resident, but has no plans to become a citizen.
    This may change when we have children, as he would want to be able to vote in the country where we are raising our children and that they would be citizens of.
    As of now, he has pride in his country and where he was born and raised, and doesn’t wish to pledge himself to this country right now. (my country IS a bit of a mess at the moment, I must admit)
    I intend to fully support whatever decision he, or our future children are to make concerning their citizenship in both Mexico and the US.
    there are many valid reason to want to hold dual citizenship if that option is avaliable to you .
    You seem to think that the only reason would be treason or some sort of mal intent…THAT I do not agree with.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    May 30, 2008 at 6:40 pm

    horace: “As far as I’m concerned, Daniel, you are not a true American or a true Mexican.”
    1, that isnt for you to decide
    2, your arent paying me so i really dont care what you think
    btw. for what it’s worth. i work for some Israelis and they have dual citizenship
    as far a being a “true Mexican” is concerned. you do not know what Mexican means.
    you think that all started with the Spaniards. you are an idiot.
    REAL Mexicans are native indigenous peoples… the MEXICA.
    “Mexican” is an “all inclussive” term that includes the many peoples different peoples of Mexico including the Jews of Monterrey and the Africans of Costa Chica.
    i can assure you, i am ZACATEC by race and Mexican blood and nationality.
    where i was born does not matter. where the Euros draw their lines and build their fences DOES NOT MATTER.
    your people will be gone soon enough. so you dont mattter either.
    🙂

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    May 30, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    idiot: “When you took the oath of citizenship you promised sole allegiance to the U.S. It looks as though you lied.”
    WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    hey azz h0l3
    i didnt take that damned oath.
    i’m 3rd generation.
    i cant believe what an ignorant idiot you are.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    May 30, 2008 at 9:36 pm

    Since the U.S. doesn’t recognize dual citizenship, a U.S. citizen who also claims to be a Mexican national does not qualify for the privilege of notification of Mexican authorities if he/she gets arrested by the police.
    If we went to war with Mexico, whose side would they remain loyal to. Don’t say that’s an impossible predicament, as I’ll bet that ethnic Germans never thought that they’d have to choose during WWI and WWII.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    May 31, 2008 at 7:59 am

    That is just one of the reasons that I don’t agree with dual citizenship, Horace. Where would their loyalties lay in the event of a war? How can the U.S. grant citizenship to anyone whose citizenship already lays with another country when the oath plainly states you must denounce any allegiance to another country?

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    May 31, 2008 at 12:20 pm

    pendejo: “Since the U.S. doesn’t recognize dual citizenship, a U.S. citizen who also claims to be a Mexican national does not qualify for the privilege of notification of Mexican authorities if he/she gets arrested by the police.”
    1, it doesnt matter what the u.s. recognizes
    2, you are not an attorney. you are an idiot.
    pendejo: “If we went to war with Mexico, whose side would they remain loyal to. Don’t say that’s an impossible predicament, as I’ll bet that ethnic Germans never thought that they’d have to choose during WWI and WWII.
    if the u.s. went to war with israel, whose side would dual citizenship american jews be on?
    and they arent even REAL jews. theyre converts.
    theyre just as fake as the “Americans” are.
    double fakes lol
    that’s what you are.
    khazars arent descendants of Abraham.
    back off boy.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    May 31, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    when was the last time a Mexican, Chicano or Mexican American went to a U.S. federal prison for spying on the United States?
    so called “jewish” Americans are convicted and sent to federal prison all the time for spying on the United States, FOR ISRAEL!
    horace sits there on his panzy ass calling into question the loyalties of Mexican-Americans instead of fighting for his country in Iraq while “Latinos” join and fight for his right to be a punk.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    May 31, 2008 at 5:23 pm

    Daniel, I’m due to deploy to Baghdad in August. When are you going?
    I’m opposed to all dual citizenships, regardless of the second nationality.
    The question is valid. Which side would Mexican-Americans with dual citizship fight if we were at war with Mexico. Is that too complicated for you Daniel?
    (Edited by Latina Lista editors)

  • Avatar
    Horace
    May 31, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    “REAL Mexicans are native indigenous peoples… the MEXICA.
    “Mexican” is an “all inclussive” term that includes the many peoples different peoples of Mexico including the Jews of Monterrey and the Africans of Costa Chica.”
    Does anyone but me feel that these two statments are both offensive and contradictory at the same time?

  • Avatar
    Frank
    May 31, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    Mexican is a nationality. It is the proper word to describe all citizens of Mexico regardless of race or ethnicticity.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 1, 2008 at 4:12 am

    When, are you going Horace?
    If the war is to steal more land from Mexico or Canada? As an American I will be fighting on THEIR side.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 1, 2008 at 3:50 pm

    bright one: “When are you going?”
    i wont be going.
    1, im 48, too old
    2, i was in the army from ’77 to 81
    in fact, my ex and i bought our first home through CalVet and the G.I. bill paid for my college education (kinda).
    i didnt get the Viet-Nam era GI Bill. i pain into my own GI Bill college fund and they matched me 2 for 1.
    however, i wouldnt go even if i were eligible.
    i have no problem with the Bath party, the Sunni, the Shia or Al-Sadr.
    i also have no problem with Iran or Hezbollah.
    many Americans dont, like Amy Goodman, President Carter etc etc etc
    funny, you’ve mention “working” with the military but i havent read that you were already in.
    Basic training isnt “deploying.” (unless that’s changed)

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 1, 2008 at 4:05 pm

    Frank: “Mexican is a nationality. It is the proper word to describe all citizens of Mexico regardless of race or ethnicticity.”
    that’s basically what i said, too.
    it’s an all inclussive term.
    learn something Frank.
    the U.S. recognizes 1/16 “Indian” blood as Native American Indian.
    the overwhelming vast majority of Mexicans have far more than 1/16 “Indian ” blood in them.
    2nd point…
    during the civil rights era. the NAACP lobbied Johnson NOT to classify Mexicans as a race because they worried that monies and resources earmarked for blacks would be consumed by Mexicans (and other Meso-American types).
    Johnson capitulated, but promissed Mexicans he would do something for us too. he never did.
    and we remained, in the official view of the U.S., white people.
    if you’d like to continue thinking Mexicans are white then i have to say to you that you have every right to remain ignorant.
    it’s a free country.
    lastly, when the Spaniards landed in MX, there where already people here.
    The called themselves Mexica.
    these are the MEXICANS.
    the country is not called Tlaxcala, Zacateca, Mixteca
    it’s called MEXICO
    it isnt really that difficult Frank.
    think frank. the name has more than one meaning.
    we are all Mexicans.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 1, 2008 at 9:16 pm

    Daniel, you are the ignorant one that you don’t even know your own genetics. Most modern day Mexicans (a nationality) are Mestizo racially. They are a combination of White Spaniard and native indian. Their native indian ancestors never lived this far north. The only people who are Mexicans today are those who hold Mexican citizenship.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 2, 2008 at 2:20 am

    how do you think maize made it’s way to Nebraska? Maize was cultivated by the Mexica.
    the Mexica ruled all the way down to Panama. and as far north as Aztlan. this is why their language is UTO-AZTECAN.
    the Utes (as do many other nations) speak a form of Nahuatl.
    i use UTE because the state of Utah was named after them but there were others.
    surely, even you can understand something so simple as that.
    “Meztizo” is a made up term like negro and sambo.
    there simply werent that many Spaniards.
    because of racism, most never mixed with the local Indigenous women.
    the Catholic church at that time insisted at that time “you get her pregnant, you marry her.” or the Spaniard risked having his own son (or daughter) land in purgatory.
    the “Casta” system also kept most Spaniards away from the poorer Mexican (indigenous) women.
    there were marriages, but they were few. most Spanish blood came through rape.
    45% of Mexicans have NEVER had any Spanish blood in them whatsoever.
    with 10% Spaniard, that leaves another 45% mixed race. so at first the gene is 50/50. but unless the Spanish gene is repeatedly added, it diminishes.
    look at how the Jews conduct their genealogy.
    from mother to daughter. thats how the Spanish gene would be handed down (if it was present in the first place).
    after two hundred years, unless the gene has been replenished, it will have whithered completely away.
    most Indigenous peoples of Mexico havent had the Spanish gene in over 200 years. some as far back as 300, 400 or even 500 years.
    like i said, you have every right to remain uneducated and ignorant.
    even after the conversion mixing didnt take place. almost everywhere you go in Mexico you see two churches side by side.
    one for the “Indios” and one for the Spanish. the rate of mixing needed to qualify your comments never occurred.
    your statements are not taught anywhere. neither in the U.S. or in MX.
    “Frank: “Most modern day Mexicans (a nationality) are Mestizo racially. They are a combination of White Spaniard and native indian. Their native indian ancestors never lived this far north. The only people who are Mexicans today are those who hold Mexican citizenship.”
    you are unqualified to make this statement. i do not know where you get this from. it surely isnt taught in the public school system in CA.
    it mustve been contrived in your own head. it’s completely without merit.
    and it is just plain dumb.

  • Avatar
    laura
    June 2, 2008 at 9:27 am

    Hola Daniel, no vale la pena discutir con idiotas.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 2, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Hi Laura,
    Well, youre right again 🙂
    but you know how popular this website is.
    Thanks to Marisa.
    lots of Meso youngsters are reading.
    so i reply mainly so that they learn.
    🙂
    daniel

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 2, 2008 at 11:20 am

    Evelyn: “If the war is to steal more land from Mexico or Canada? As an American I will be fighting on THEIR side.”
    the CIA were some of the first in Iraq.
    they looted the central bank of BILLIONS!
    billion here, billion there. sooner or later it ads up lol
    🙂

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 2, 2008 at 12:04 pm

    Daniel,
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html#People
    You can deny your White bloodlines all you want but the majority of Mexicans are Mestizo. They are part White Spaniard and part native indian.
    If it were a one-time shot with the Spanish just coming for a couple of years around 1497, their entire culture wouldn’t have such a Spanish influence! It’s not only their language, but their architecture, food, music, literature, etc. YES, there is also indigenous influence. But that is what Mexico is: a MIXTURE of Spanish/indigenous. You can try to deny it all they want. But, they certainly are different than the Apache or Cherokee who have NO Spanish influence, aren’t they?? How do they explain THAT one?
    The only thing they have in common with the North American tribes is a shared DNA. They were completely different tribes. If the Mexican indios wandered onto Apache land, they’d be killed or chased off. They were no more the same people than the Romans were to the Visigoths! Same genetics, yes, but different tribes with their own tribal loyalties, laws, and customs.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 2, 2008 at 3:35 pm

    frank: “You can deny your White bloodlines all you want but the majority of Mexicans are Mestizo.”
    this is not so.
    no one is denying their “white” “bloodline.” there is no such thing as a bloodline. do you mean DNA?
    frank doesnt know about DNA. The majority of Mexicans are not “mestizo.”
    no where in academia is that taught. that is a complete fabrication.
    frank: “They are part White Spaniard and part native indian.”
    that implies 50/50. and no one believes that.
    greengo pah leez!
    frank: “If it were a one-time shot with the Spanish just coming for a couple of years around 1497, their entire culture wouldn’t have such a Spanish influence!”
    frank: “It’s not only their language, but their architecture, food, music, literature, etc.”
    prove it. the language,yes. because of genocide. but Nahua is spoken.
    the rest is frank lies.
    frank: “YES, there is also indigenous influence.”
    jajaja, apoco?
    frank: “But that is what Mexico is: a MIXTURE of Spanish/indigenous.”
    wrong. you are an ignorant gringo.
    frank: “they certainly are different than the Apache or Cherokee who have NO Spanish influence, aren’t they?? ”
    not really. we are the same people, Northern Siberians. they had littleno Spanish in us just like us Mexicans.
    there were different waves of migration.
    if you had an education i wouldnt have to explain this to your punk azz.
    frank: “The only thing they have in common with the North American tribes is a shared DNA.”
    nope. we share a language, religion, cultural aspects and DNA.
    frank: “They were completely different tribes.”
    says who? you are not an authority.
    frank: “If the Mexican indios wandered onto Apache land, they’d be killed or chased off.”
    not all ways. you are not Apache. you were not present.
    you are unqualified to make that statement.
    frank: “They were no more the same people than the Romans were to the Visigoths!”
    you misquoted.
    “there are no Romans in Italy or Rome.”
    in a similar manner, there are no Meixca in Tenochtitlan.
    wrong! they (the Mexica) are still there doing what they have been doing for thousands of years.
    and all countries, including the U.s. recognize this.
    frank: “Same genetics, yes, but different tribes with their own tribal loyalties, laws, and customs. ”
    my god. the idiot has spoken.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 2, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    Daniel, just exactly what do you mean by “the gene is passed down from the mother to the daughter”? When a child is conceived it is the father that determines the sex of the unborn child. The child inherits some of the genes from both the father and the mother. So when that child grows up and marries (whether it be a male or a female) they still have both genes present in their system and they pass those on to THEIR children (whether they be male or female). Did you flunk biology?
    Wherever did you get the idea that most native indians were raped by the Spaniards? Boy, you really are eager to deny your White genes, aren’t you. Doesn’t matter anyway, raped or not you still are a combination of BOTH your father and mother genetics.

  • Avatar
    mayanmx
    June 3, 2008 at 3:44 am

    Dang Bro Daniel,
    Go, go, go!!!
    Frank, really, are you Apache? Have you ever spoken to an Apache? You make a good case for updated elementary school history books.
    Oh, and have you ever traveled to Mexico? If so, have you gone beyond the resort? Are you one of those that had a year of spanish in high school and think its so easy that now you speak Spanish?
    In what world do you see there being a war between Mexico and the U.S.? I swear, do you know its 2008? I mean really.
    With so many global minded people, so many people living lives that go beyond the southern border, moving back and forth, back and forth, falling in love, having babies, setting up lives for their grandchildren, that we’d need to have a war? Don’t you think we have diplomats anymore? Listen, that’s what the big boys do up there in Washington, make sure we don’t get into war so we don’t drain our economy, education, health care and future.
    Why must people make a choice? Why? Do you insist companies make choices? Politicians, Musicians, Filmmakers, Gamers, and all the millions of people crossing borders behind your back?
    The sad truth is that a little diplomacy might have prevented us from having to stand red faced in light of our own human rights abuses, there is no longer that light of hope anywhere in the world. And that is a tragedy beyond you, and me, and Mexicans, and Isrealis, and Martians. Its just a plain tragedy.
    Ridiculous. Always using trigger words, you got so many in a sentence, just doesn’t even make any sense Frank.
    Do sit down, pick up a book, take another swipe at educating yo’ self.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 3, 2008 at 5:09 am

    Mexicans are American Indians – It’s the Border that is Illegal
    Will the Real Illegal Aliens Please Stand Up
    By Barry Carter
    The brown people of Mexico have been on the North American continent for tens of thousands of years. They are American Indians indigenous to America and thus cannot be illegal aliens. One cannot be both indigenous and alien since these are opposites. Euro-Americans renamed them Hispanic, Latino, Mexican, Mestizo, Chicano for reasons of self-gain. By renaming them eventually people forget that they are Indigenous North American Indians. Once forgotten then the American land is free for the taking.
    All one has to do is look at a pre-contact map of the North American continent to see that the US-Mexican border, is an artificial line, that bisected the territory of Indian people, such as the Ute-Aztecan. The Ute-Aztecan territory covers much of current day Mexico, Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada. Thus the border is illegal, not the Indians. The Indian peoples never approved this border. Thus American Indians as illegal aliens in America is as ridicules as someone coming into your house, taking your house at gunpoint and then getting an illegal court order barring you from entering your own house. It does not matter how many years pass it is your house. If you are the illegal alien in the house, what better defense than pointing the finger at the real owners as the illegal aliens, in order to hide your true status and theft.
    The mislabeling of an entire group of Indian people is no accident. It was/is a common ploy to steal land, wealth and power of the rightful inhabitants of America. In the Southeastern U.S. many Indians pass as light skin black people because for centuries they were forced to deny their Indian heritage or face death. The same is true of Indians in the Caribbean. The Taino Indians were supposed to be extinct, but when DNA testing was done, in Puerto Rico, over 90% of the population had significant American Indian DNA. The motivation of Euro-Americans was and is the possession, ownership and control of American “Indian” land. Europeans inflicted the greatest human holocaust in history in order to attain the land and wealth. This holocaust resulted in tens of millions of Indian deaths, extinction of entire nations, languages and cultures.
    It does not take a rocket scientist to simply look at Mexicans to know that they are American Indians. Demographics for Mexico show that 90% of the population is Indian. So why then does Euro-America see Mexicans as illegal aliens and not as American Indians? Because it conflicts with their self-interest and vision of manifest destiny or “greedifest destiny”. They feel that they have some god given right to American Indian land and seeing Mexicans as American Indians threatens this illusion.
    What we really have is an apartheid system on the North American continent. The system of apartheid started in the Americas in 1492. Initially millions of east coast Indians were killed to make lands free for Europeans. The remaining eastern Indians were supposedly forced out of the east as indicated with Andrew Jackson proclamation that there were no more Indians east of the Mississippi. In essence everything west of the Mississippi was a large Indian Reservation. As the Euro-Americans came west, the Indians west of the Mississippi, were forced onto apartheid “homeland” reservations or to the south. Eventually a line was drawn to the south (the U.S.-Mexican border) with the majority of American Indians barred south of the line. Euro-Americans argue that the delineating factor is that Euro-English conquered the lands north of the border, for the most part, and the Euro-Spanish conquered the lands to the south. This, however, is meaningless to the American Indians who were already here and thus are indigenous.
    What the illegal alien issue is really all about is threatening the Euro-American manifest destiny dream. We don’t call Lakota or Navajo or Apache illegal aliens today because their numbers were reduced so greatly that they have little power to threaten Euro-America. They are free to leave their reservations and come and go as they please. However, when they were a threat, to manifest destiny, it was illegal for them to leave the reservations and they were considered illegal aliens off the reservations. And this was true of Indians living east of the Mississippi. After Andrew Jackson’s Indian Removal Act of the 1830’s it was illegal for Indians to be east of the Mississippi and Indians were not only considered illegal aliens if they were found east of the Mississippi, they were found DEAD illegal aliens.
    Today the 100,000,000 Indians living south of the illegal border pose the only Indian threat to Euro-America’s vision of manifest destiny. And believe me the racist notion of manifest destiny is unconsciously still alive and kicking the majority of Euro-Americans heads. The mere notion that the America today is still Indian land is a foreign notion in most Euro-America’s heads. This is why most Euro-Americans are ignorant to the fact that Mexico is part North America. And this buried racial bias is behind the thinking that allows the Indians, in question, to so easily be classified as illegal aliens in their own homelands.
    When we really think about it Mexico is a very large Indian reservation. All Indian reservations are part of an American apartheid system created by Euro-Americans. The border between the US and Mexico is an apartheid border. It is a racist border created out of imperialism and the colonization of indigenous people. Euro-Americans have 100 million brown Indians isolated on a large reservation called Mexico in order to keep brown people separate and powerless and to maintain power in the hands of Euro-Americans. This is exactly what was done with South African apartheid with “homeland” reservations for brown people. Like South Africa, the brown people from the Mexican reservation are allowed to come in temporarily and do menial work, but must return to their reservations when the work is done. They both must have a pass to be off their reservation. It is all about control of indigenous brown people.
    What’s really behind Euro-American fears and the illegal alien propaganda? Euro-Americans in the United States have the same fears as White people in South Africa before the apartheid wall fell. They fear being overrun by 100 million brown people. If the 100 million Indians are let off of the reservation Euro-Americans lose control of government, politics, business, etc. Their dreams of manifest destiny collapses and it becomes clear that American’s destiny has always been brown and the illusion of a “white” America is gone.
    Many Euro-Americans will refuse to accept the facts of history. They’ll get hung up on all kinds of details. They will argue, show us the Yaqui, Cahita, Tarahumara, Jumano, Seri, Coahuiltec, Karankawa, Tonkawa, Mixtec, Tarascan Indians since these are the people whose land was bisected by the border. However, the “Euro-recognition con-game and other specious arguments do not matter since there is no way to stop the 100,000,000 Indians from crossing the illegal border and thus no way to stop the re-browning of America. There are 100 million brown Indians that cannot be imprisoned on the Mexican reservation indefinitely. They are reclaiming the North American continent one person and one day at a time—American Indians crossing the illegal apartheid border. And there is nothing Euro-Americans can do about it.
    […]
    AS I SAID IN A RECENT COMMENT THREAD, the purpose of renaming Mexicans as “Hispanic” is to deny them their Indian status. The purpose of naming Mexican migrants as “Aliens” is grossly obvious. Could you possibly think of a nastier, more dehumanizing word? The purpose of framing those of Mexican descent as anything except what they are is done for very insidious and harmful purposes. As if some wall or ocean or moral boundary separates la tierra of “texas” from la tierra of “mexico” and has since the dawn of time. It truly requires some magical, self-interested and deluded thinking to come to the conclusions one must in order to feel justified about countless realities today such as NAFTA, border-walls, Incarceration of children, and “hunting me some aliens.”
    The recent history of Mexico, that of the last five hundred years, is the story of permanent confrontation between those attempting to direct the country toward the path of Western civilization and those, rooted in Mesoamerican ways of life, who resist. The first plan arrived with the European invaders but was not abandoned with independence.
    —Guillermo Banfil Batalla
    The conquest of this continent did not end with the Spanish leaving, nor with the American Declarations of whatevers. The conquest bloodly, blindly, desperately staggers on. But unless you kill every single one of us and our descendants (or wipe our memories), this conquest will never succeed. Invent laws, invent courts, invent reasons why Indians are subhuman, but it doesn’t matter, your small-scale dreams and greed-stained papers flutter like sick flies in a mighty wind of inconsequence. Some of us keep our hearts in the hands of the Earth, our precious truths in the gold envelopes of the Sun, herself—places where time will not yield to the Lie. Some of us have deeper alliances than those formed by the Dollar. We are still here. We will be here to watch the balance restored. We are restoring the balance.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 3, 2008 at 8:06 am

    Daniel, of course I meant DNA when I used the word “bloodlines.” Didn’t you read the stats from the link I provided you from the CIA World Fact Book? It states that 60% of Mexicans are Mestizo and their DNA is made up of a combination of White (Spaniard) and native indian. You know more than than they do?
    You are in serious denial if you are trying to claim that the Mestizos of Mexico’s culture don’t include plenty of Spanish influence. Who is forcing you today to speak Spanish as your primary language? I am well aware that some native indian languages are still spoken in Mexico but they are not by any means spoken with the frequency that Spanish is. What genocide? I haven’t seen any native indian bloodlines purged from Mexico or the whole Western Hemisphere for that matter. We have all mixed racially throughout this whole planet.
    What language did all of the native indians share on this entire northern continent? They, didn’t! The different tribes spoke different languages. They all had their own cultural practices also. Not only do you need a course in biology but you need a course in history also. You are the idiot because you never lived back then either and all we have to go by is what is written in the history books. Those who lived back then are all dead. Where are you getting your scewered information? Probably some Chicano Nationalist radical reconquista group!

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    mayanmx
    June 3, 2008 at 2:31 pm

    Frank,
    I know its just that you don’t know any better but we don’t get our history from the history books. Those are for you. Our grandparents, and great grandparents and great great grandparents passed down the histories.
    It would be nice if the past was the past but there are people still alive today who remember, who suffered the policies towards Native Americans. Who are you to say because their stories aren’t in the history books they don’t exist? Wasn’t that the whole point, NOT to put our histories in the storybooks describing what happened.
    Does the CIA know more? Who knows? Was that statement written before the slew of DNA studies being done right now that point to the presence of this biological connection between indigenous peoples of these lands?
    California tribes didn’t speak the same language as the Mixecas, but we have the same root language. And, believe me, the tears that come to my eyes watching a Mayan elder speak their language and an Alaskan or Hopi elder recognizes the words. The word for our tribe has a definition in the Mayan language. There are stories of the Mexica and other indigenous people from Mexico hiding out with people of our tribe once the state started paying money for the SCALPS of California Indians.
    I know you mean well, Frank, I have been reading your posts now for some time. I see and smell the fear, the hysterical sense of need to defend. I hear the cracking in your voice. But, no one is out to do you harm. We just get so tired of hearing the same old story from people who I assume are like you since you have the same stories. Is there anywhere in your world you might find some education about indigenous people other than the CIA> I mean, really Frank, most people check ALL kinds of other sources. I don’t think I have ever read a CIA description of Mexico. Interesting that you would and then CITE it as your basis for scholarly discourse to and about Chicanos.
    Can you tell me a little bit more about your background? I’d like to throw some up some history about your people. Isn’t this fun and productive?

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    Frank
    June 3, 2008 at 3:46 pm

    I always love it how desperate some Mestizos are to deny any white heritage. ALL OF THE “INDIGENOUS” WERE RAPED FOR 500 YEARS! Yeah, right! And I’ve got some beachfront property to sell you in Arizona! LOL!
    Like I said, Mexico was a colony of Spain. It was actually called “New Spain” before the Mexicans won independence from Spain. And for 500 YEARS the Spanish matriculated with the indigenous. Nobody is saying that they are all 50/50 white/indigenous. There is no way to know exactly what a person’s genetic makeup is without having a blood test.
    Again, the Cherokee and the Aztecs had virtually NOTHING in common! All of this is nothing but Marxist propaganda; and it is accomplishing EXACLY what it was intended to accomplish.
    And I just LOVED the statement that there are no Romans in Rome or Italy! WTH!!!??????? Where do you think the descendants of the Romans went to after their culture was decimated by the Huns and the other barbarians?????? They were STILL THERE! THEY NEVER MIGRATED OUT OF THE AREA!
    Your desperation to deny any white heritage in Mexico really smacks of racism. You are so going out of your way to reject any white DNA that it is very obvious that you have a hatred and racism towards whites. You sound like a Nazi who is vehemently denying any Jewish blood. You are reacting exactly the way a dumb white supremacist would react if someone suggested that they had black genes in them somewhere down the line! Racist to the core!
    It is nothing but Socialist/Marxist BS about how the Mexica Indians and the U.S. Indians are all the same people and how these “artificial” boundaries were created by Euros.
    The group “Hispanic” was created by the census bureau for those who wished to identify themself in that way. There is also a catagory for native indian. All one has to do is choose the one they feel fits them. No one is forcing anyone to say they identify as Hispanic. Anyone opposed to the word Hispanic does so in order to claim the “indigenous” only in their heritage and, thus, their so-called claim to the land!
    THAT IS WHAT THIS DENIAL OF THE SPANISH HERITAGE IS ALL ABOUT! It is felt that to admit that Mestizo/Mexican culture and DNA has any significant amount of Spanish in it that it diminishes their “moral authority” to claim they have a right to this land! It is a dead giveaway!
    I am so damned sick of these Marxists/Socialists. And that is all they are. This is who is behind all of this radical Chicano sh*t. They went from trying to unite the “workers of the world” to throwing the “workers of the world” under the bus in favor of using the third world peoples. And one of the way they incite them to action is to forment resentment and hatred. Western culture is the pillar of Capitalism and Marxism and they must tear down that culture in order to get their Socialist utopia.
    This is plainly a confrontation between Western civilization and the Meso Indian culture.
    Framed that way, it now becomes much more than merely “compassion” for hard working people. This is not immigration. Immigration is when people come and want to be a PART of the country and its way of life. It now becomes an admitted confrontation of one group by another. The group coming in is hostile , does not seek to become a part of our country. And the group being confronted (proponents of Western civilization) have every right to repel this invasion and confrontation and defend OUR culture and civilization. Thanks for making clear what this is all about. Not that we didn’t already know it, but it is nice to see you put it in black and white. Thanks again!
    All of the claims of racism is just Marxist/Socialist propaganda meant to neutralize any opposition to this hostile invasion. It’s not working because we know what it is all about.
    Unfortunately for the “indigenous” the Europeans created the United States. The social, economic, and legal system which exists today, which provides the economic opportunities that now exist here (and for which immigrants come) were created by Europeans. So, maybe the answer would be to say that the “indigenous” have the right to “live” wherever they want on the continent, but not necessarily to partake of the system, including educational and social service, which was put in place (and which provides the jobs) by the Euros.
    It is a safe assumption that if the U.S. were a third world nation with no economic opportunities there would be very little interest in “the land.” The Mexicas went clear to Panama but you don’t see any massive waves of illegal immigrants making their way into THOSE lands, do you? Damn those Euros for creating a first world nation where so many immigrants from all over the world come to seek the “American Dream!” Should have left the Aztecs alone to keep ripping the beating hearts out of their victims (the tribes which THEY oppressed and brutalized and regularly aggressed against.)

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    Frank
    June 3, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    More points to ponder on this “indigenous” crap:
    The other part of the Marxist agenda is to form this phony alliance between ALL of the indigenous tribes. They know that we’ve got them when we say that the indigenous South of the border have no claim on U.S. land, and that their grievance is with the Spanish/Portuguese, not the Anglos. So, in order to overcome that fact, they must make the case that THEY ARE ALL THE SAME PEOPLE divided only by “artificial borders” created by Europeans. That is what this is all about.
    That is why I take it one step further and say that EVEN IF THIS WERE TRUE (and it is not!), the fact still remains that this government along with its economic, social, and legal system was created by Europeans. THIS is what they are coming for, NOT to merely “stand” on the land! So, they STILL can’t win! They are literally trying to use as justification for coming here, taking jobs, getting education, healthcare, and all kinds of other benefits the fact that they were here first! Yes, here first, but you did not create the system that you now wish to avail yourself of! Like I said, if it were merely “the land,” why aren’t they streaming into Central America which was also “their land?” No, they are LEAVING that area to come here to take advantage of that which the evil white man put into place. THAT THEY CANNOT DISPUTE!

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 3, 2008 at 5:52 pm

    The only thing the Europeans created is animosity aimed at themselves for invading America, killing the majority of it’s inhabitants, stealing the lands and enslaving non-whites to build and create.

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    Frank
    June 3, 2008 at 6:02 pm

    mayanmex,
    The problem when stories get passed down through human lips, the stories change drastically at the end.
    I don’t think you even realize that the CIA World Fact Book has detailed information on every country and it’s population in the world–not just Mexicans!! The reason is that it is their job to know the countries of the world, their populations, and all the other little details that an intelligence agency would want to know. So, yes, it is a very credible source for this type of information!
    Yeah, and I can tell by all of the hatred and animosity directed towards whites for events that their ancestors might not have even been present in the country for that “nobody wants to hurt us.” For SOME of them (not all) it is ALL ABOUT REVENGE AND PAYBACK. We know it; they TELL US, we HEAR it in their slogans. They SHOW US, we SEE it in their signs. It is all over their forums and blogs. It is generally a good idea to believe people when they tell you they hate you.
    You smell my fear? Well I think that any country’s citizens would fear the takeover of their country by illegal aliens. Duh!
    By the way Chicano is the term used to describe Americans of Mexican ancestry. Mestizo is the race I am talking about. Chicano isn’t a race. Mestizos live both here and in Mexico and elsewhere also.
    Since you asked, I am white by race. My ancestors were from Ireland and Germany. They came here long after the U.S. became an independant nation.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 3, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    holy shiat! lol
    “And I just LOVED the statement that there are no Romans in Rome or Italy! WTH!!!??????? Where do you think the descendants of the Romans went to after their culture was decimated by the Huns and the other barbarians?????? They were STILL THERE! THEY NEVER MIGRATED OUT OF THE AREA!”
    that’s exactly my point. the Mexica and other nations and there descendents are still in Mexico.
    i did not sat Cherokee, i said Ute.
    anyone can check with these guys:
    Aztlan-FAMSI and Nahuatl-FAMSI
    “ALL OF THE “INDIGENOUS” WERE RAPED FOR 500 YEARS!”
    where did i say that? quote me.
    “Nobody is saying that they are all 50/50 white/indigenous. ”
    well, you imply that the father’s AND mother’s dna are both used. that’s 50/50.
    also, i am not a Marxist. although i did read Das Capital twice in the 7th grade.
    i been self employed in my own business most my adult life.
    “Your desperation to deny any white heritage in Mexico really smacks of racism.”
    i have repeatedly stated about 8-10% of Mexicans are Euros. my dad and wife to name two.
    “It is nothing but Socialist/Marxist BS about how the Mexica Indians and the U.S. Indians are all the same people and how these “artificial” boundaries were created by Euros.”
    actually, all the Mexica i know reject Marxism as another Euro tool to control the poor.
    native Americans did arrive in different waves but we are all Northern Siberians. until academia proves different.
    “The group “Hispanic” was created by the census bureau for those who wished to identify themself in that way.”
    so what. that’s what colonization does to people. theyd rather be Latino, Hispanic than INJUN. it beats ethnocide.
    you are ranting about Socialism.
    does this mean you wont be using electric power, the post office, trash service or Social Security?
    “This is plainly a confrontation between Western civilization and the Meso Indian culture.”
    nothing gets by this guy, does it?
    conjecture, nothing but conjecture mixed with rants and ignorance.
    Frank,
    time is on our side. all you can do is bend over backwards as far as you can and kiss your ass goodbye 🙂
    Mexitli
    AKA The Notorious VC

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    Daniel
    June 3, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    lol: “By the way Chicano is the term used to describe Americans of Mexican ancestry. Mestizo is the race I am talking about. Chicano isn’t a race. Mestizos live both here and in Mexico and elsewhere also.”
    1, that’s what you think. “Chicano” is from Mexicano. it is really spelled Xicano. they were Nahua speaking indigenas from Mexico.
    “Mestizo” is not a race. not in Mexico or in the U.S.
    there are 5 major races in Mexico.
    African
    Asian
    Euro
    Sematic
    and
    the Indigenous who are essentially members of the Asian race.
    mestizo is only a race in your mind, and we’ve all seen how that your iq is probably about 100-110.

  • Avatar
    Daniel
    June 3, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    the “Aztlan Highway” is from Aztlan to Tenochtitlan.
    even though the Maya are Meso like us, theyre land is mostly from Mexico to what is called Central America.
    Nevertheless, it’s the same chet so Aztlan belongs to both the Maya and Mexica.
    another point:
    are the Lakota Mestizos? NO.
    are the Sioux Latinos? NO.
    last point: is Shaquille Oneal Irish? No.

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    Horace
    June 3, 2008 at 9:51 pm

    “The only thing the Europeans created is animosity aimed at themselves for invading America, killing the majority of it’s inhabitants, stealing the lands and enslaving non-whites to build and create.”
    Oh really, every democratic institution in this country was established Europeans, including the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and our legal system. Most scientific and engineering accomplishments were made by Euros: the telephone, the light bulb, motion pictures, the digital camera, the motion picture camera, the telegraph, the instant photograph, mass production of the automobile, the Brooklyn Bridge, the television, the phonograph, the digital computer, the chemical and pharmaceutical industries, the electronic industry, etc. I could go on, but I’ve already embarrassed that silly racist Evelyn enough. How many scientific inventions or engineering feats are the result of Latino efforts? Name one, Evelyn. I know that they exist, but they are practically insignificant compared to those of Europeans.
    Before the Europeans came to North America, the indigenous folk were living as the Europeans did in the stone age. Perhaps they’d be still living that way today if Europeans never crossed the Atlantic. Few people, probably only hateful idiots, would deign to say that Europeans contributed nothing to today’s Indians, as they benefit from the great accomplishments of Europeans. I apologize to the Latino community in advance for having to spank Evelyn at their expense.

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    Horace
    June 3, 2008 at 10:06 pm

    “Mexicans are American Indians – It’s the Border that is Illegal”
    Oh really, Evelyn, by what body of laws may the U.S. be held accountable for this illegal border? Illegal according to whose standards? International law? The Constitution? The Code of Hammurabi? Jewish Law? Biblical law? The Code of the West? Pirates Code? Cite your reference, otherwise you’re just proving once again that you’re one of the aluminum foil hat crowd. Just because you can find some idiot to say so doesn’t give it the legitimacy.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 4, 2008 at 8:34 am

    Daniel, you were the one that claimed that there weren’t that many Spaniards that came here. They came for hundreds of years and that is the reason for my remark “were the “indigenous” raped for 500 years? You are the one claiming that they were mostly all raped! Why do you all speak Spanish today if there were so few Spaniards that came here?
    I am not only implying that both the mother and father pass on their genes to their unborn but IT IS A FACT! You really need to take a course in biology. What do you think is in the sperm….kool-aid? It is also a fact the father determines the sex of the unborn child.
    And you are incorrect in your statement that only 8-10% of Mexicans are of “Euro (Spanish)” ancestry. I provided a link to the CIA World Factbook that proves you wrong. 60% of Mexicans are of “Euro” ancestry!
    I don’t get your remark about the term “Hispanic” being used as a classification for people. One can still choose “native indian” on the census. Some people would rather identify themselves as Hispanic. Actually, I don’t know why the term Hispanic was chosen for the census because Hispanic is a culture and not a race. The term used should have been “Mestizo” instead.
    Uh, electrical power, postal services and SS are a part of our existing Democracy.
    Time is on your side? What does that mean? I don’t see a whole lot of pure blooded native indians trying to takeover this country, only the Mestizos of Mexico. Would it be ok with you if the Chinese invaded Mexico illegally by the millions and took over that country? Anyone who licks their chops over genocide is one sick pupply. Just as sick as Hitler was.
    And before you get started on Whiteys past transgressions, I wasn’t alive back then and if I had been I certainly wouldn’t have been a part of any genocide of the native indians. Lets not forget those genocidal ancestors of yours either ok? Like the Aztecs and the Spaniards for starters.

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    Frank
    June 4, 2008 at 8:53 am

    Some more food for thought for you, Daniel.
    You admitted that the Mexicas never left Mexico–that the indigenous Mexicans are still there. Well, that’s EXACTLY OUR POINT! The Mexican indigenous inhabited what is now central Mexico and Central America.
    I have an anthropological map that details where each tribe that can be traced (even some basically extinct today) originally inhabited. NONE of the Mexican tribes (tribes indigenous to what is now Mexico) EVER established themselves THIS FAR NORTH! And you unwittingly admitted this to me in your response.
    That is why the radical Chicano activists are so desperate to make a connection between the Mexica Indios and the tribes native to what is now the U.S. like the Cherokee, Apache, Sioux, Comanche, etc. These nuts are out in CA trying to get recognition as Native American tribes so they can get the same benefits that our REAL Native American tribes get. But, the government only recognizes the original tribes which they had treaties with. That would NOT be the Aztecs, Mixtecs, or any tribes indigenous to South of the border as they would have been SPAIN’S problem and then the MEXICAN government’s after they won their independence from SPAIN.
    But, you guys are so desperate because the Mexican government just ignores the indigenous in their own country and have for centuries. They sense that the gringo is now weak and so they are trying their luck here with the help of Socialists/Marxist and their Chicano nationalist propaganda.
    The agenda is really crystal clear.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 4, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    Horace
    This is a list of accomplishments by indigenous people you asked me for. If these people were able to do all this while our ancestors in Europe still lived in caves imagine what they could have done if no invasion had taken place, or better yet imagine what they would be today if they had invaded Europe and were reaping all the benefits instead of the other way around?
    It must be very embarrassing to realize how ignorant one truly is. I feel for you. Aawww
    EUROPEANS did not bring civilization here (actually, they came here and destroyed civilization in the traditions of the Germanic tribes which had brought destruction upon Roman civilization.)
    1) American Indian Contributions to the World:
    15,000 Years of Inventions and Innovations
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081605367…glance&n=283155
    2) 1491: New Revelations on the Americas Before Columbus
    by Charles Mann
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140004006…glance&n=283155
    3) We are one of the three places in the world where civilization originated without outside help from the outside world, these are known as “pristine civilizations” according to archaeologists (the other two are Iraq and China.)
    ASTRONOMY Study of the position and movements of the moon, sun, planets, stars, and constellations. Our Anahuac big focus was on movements that happened at the horizon. We predicted solar and lunar eclipses. We combined all of this knowledge to help in the development of calendars, which in turn helped with the development of agriculture.
    Almanacs Almanacs are books containing astronomical and weather information beginning 3,500 years ago on our continent. Europe only began keeping almanacs in 1150 AD.
    Observatories Structures built specifically to observe the night skies and the movements of the sun. Famous observatories are at Chichen Itza and Mayapan. Other lesser known observatories are at Casa Rinconada at Chaco Canyon, the observatory at Uxmal, and the Bighorn medicine wheel in Montana. But then again, almost all our buildings were aligned astronomically and were serving as specialized buildings to observe the sun, the moon, Venus, and other parts of the sky.
    GOVERNMENT Iroquois, Mexica, and Inca governing structures made more of an influence and impact on the ideas of Democratic freedom, women in government, and other ideas than were Greek or Roman ideas of government.
    MATHEMATICS
    Abacus The abacus is called the nepohualtzitzin in the Nahuatl language, (900-1000 AD). The abacus is a portable calculating device. This was a way to do faster calculations of the inventories of food and other products. Adding and subtracting were made easier. Critical thinking and great knowledge of mathematics were involved in the invention of this accounting tool. Our nepohualtzitzin was developed independent of the Chinese abacus.
    MEDICINE This is one big area where we have been denied our proper credit. Effective medicines from 200 plants that are now part of U.S. Pharmacopoeia were developed by our people. Over 120 drugs used today were first developed and made by us.
    Agave Agave was and is used as medicine. It has uses as an antibiotic, laxative, and treatment for burns.
    Anesthetics Materials that cause partial or total loss of sensation or loss of consciousness. Peyote, coca, and datura were the main materials used to be applied to an area of the body in preparaation for surgery.
    Anatomy In 1519 the Mexica (“Aztec”) physicians had a better understanding of the heart and circulatory system than Europeans.
    Antibiotics Materials that destroy bacteria are called antibiotics. The Mexica of 1519 used maguey sap to dress wounds in order to prevent infection. Europeans did not use antibiotics until 1941.
    Antivirals Echinacea was used as a successful antiviral.
    SURGERY Different surgery techniques were successfully used in different parts of the body by the Mexica before they were ever used by Europeans.
    Arthrocentesis
    Operation to remove excess fluid from the knee joint. Mexica (“Aztec”) doctors did this operation hundreds of years before Europeans.
    Asepsis Shoshone and Paiute used Apiaceae as an antiseptic hundreds of years before Joseph Lister (1827-1912) got credit for discovering that microorganisms cause infections and other illnesses. Our people routinely used boiled water to treat wounds. European doctors didn’t see a need to even clean wounds until the nineteenth century.
    4) Creators of the the world’s largest city three separate times: Teotihuacan, Tenochtitlan, and Cholula.
    5) Independent inventors of the wheel: Don’t believe the nonsense that we didn’t invent the wheel or that we had no metals. We had gold, silver, copper, and bronze.
    6) First people in the world to use zero (even before the Hindus).
    7) Creators of a base-20 mathematics system with positional notation (predating Europeans)
    8) Creators of the world’s most accurate calendar
    (after 1492, Europeans changed their calendar to the Gregorian system because they realized it was inaccurate.)
    9) Possessors of a pyramid tradition that extended all the way up north the Mississippi River to Wisconsin, and all the way to the East Coast. And of course this pyramid tradition was independent of Egypt. The heart of this civilization was in what is now called Mexico and “Central America”.
    (Do a Google on “Cahokia” for more info.)
    10) We created a calculator/abacus which we called the Nepohualtzitzin.
    11) Creators of books, and many libraries:
    12) Top-notch astronomers measuring and predicting the movements of the sun, moon, planets, and stars (Europeans imitated the style of our observatories after 1492, changing their own in the mid 1540’s)
    13) First people in the world to have mandatory education (Tenochtitlan).
    (see “Daily Life of the Aztecs” by Jacques Soustelle)
    14) Independently developed 12 writing systems (of which the Mayan system was the pinnacle). (see “Mexico: From the Olmecs to the Aztecs” by Michael D Coe)
    15) Creators of cities before there was a single town or city in all of western Europe.
    16) Creators of the world’s two largest pyramids: the Pyramid of Dan ta (Mayan) and the Pyramid of Cholula. (see Discovery Channel’s DVD series entitled “Pyramids, Mummies, and Tombs.)
    17) Biogenetically domesticated the corn plant into its modern variant giving the world one of the most nutritious foods. (read “1491” by Charles Mann)
    18) Creators of the world’s first team sport (the ball game)
    19) Architecture which inspired European architects such as Frank Lloyd Wright
    and then there are the myriad of other inventions and developments that we made:
    * chocolate
    * vanilla
    * cotton (our cotton was more durable than the Egyptian type, thus used today)
    * the syringe
    * latex treatment to create rubber
    * chewing gum
    * cataract removal with obsidian blades
    * concrete (made of limestone, also invented in China)
    * dentistry
    * board games
    * geometry
    * mirrors
    * popcorn
    * a vast pharmacopoeia (botanical medicine)
    * roads systems
    * scalpels
    * umbrellas
    * toothbrushes
    * plus all the fine arts in sculpture, painting, gold-working, feather-working, poetry, music, etc
    And there’s so much more that we could have invented
    if the Europeans had stayed in Europe where they belong.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 4, 2008 at 6:32 pm

    Mexicans are American Indians – It’s the Border that is Illegal”
    Oh really, Evelyn, by what body of laws may the U.S. be held accountable for this illegal border? Illegal according to whose standards? International law? The Constitution? The Code of Hammurabi? Jewish Law? Biblical law? The Code of the West? Pirates Code? Cite your reference, otherwise you’re just proving once again that you’re one of the aluminum foil hat crowd. Just because you can find some idiot to say so doesn’t give it the legitimacy.
    If you cant figure out why it is illegal to divide land that belongs to others. Well then you are just lost….
    You can spin the issue all you want, but facts are facts and that wont change.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 4, 2008 at 7:42 pm

    Why do you all speak Spanish today if there were so few Spaniards that came here
    For the same reason the Native Americans and Black people in the U.S. do.
    I wonder if you also think that 60% of Blacks and 60% of Native Americans from the U.S. are “Euro” ancestry?
    If you do can you explain to me where in Europe did these Blacks, Native Americans and Mexicans come from?

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 4, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    It still amazes me when one is of mixed ancestry of White and native indian that they only want to identify with their native indian side. Their White side is just trash to them.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 4, 2008 at 10:41 pm

    Again, according to the CIA World Fact Book, modern day Mexicans living in Mexico are 60% Mestizo (a mix of White Spaniard or European White and Native Indian). Their primary language is Spanish! That is directly due to their Spanish ancestors.
    Anyone who speaks Spanish as their primary langauge in the U.S. usually are from ancestry south of the border. The fact that there are some anglo-whites and blacks that can speak Spanish in this country, is usually because they learned it but it never was their primary language because their ancestors weren’t Spaniards. Their primary language is English.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 5, 2008 at 12:20 am

    If your German ancestors had raped your Irish grandmother, killed and tortured most of your Irish family and stolen their land and treated your Irish family as trash. Would you be very accepting of your German Ancestors? I think not.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 5, 2008 at 8:15 am

    I would still accept the fact that I am a combination of both of my ancestors genetically. You can’t change genetics!
    I may hate one ancestor of mine for raping another but I certainly wouldn’t hate the “entire race” of the raper for eternity! We are all individuals and are not responsible for what our ancestors did.
    In the case of the Mestizo-Mexicans if any of their ancestors were raped by the Spaniards then it is the Spaniards they should hate, not ango-whites!

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 5, 2008 at 8:18 am

    Let me be a bit more clear on this. If a Mestizo-Mexican’s ancestor was raped by a Spaniard then they should perhaps hate that “one” Spaniard who did that but they certainly shouldn’t hate every Spaniard alive today who had nothing to do with it.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    Mexicans dont hate anybody, where in the world did you get that Idea. You want to force their acceptance of a few drops of Spanish blood down their throats, and I explained to you why they rejected it, which is normal in their case.
    The one who harbors hate is you, and most people hate racists, they are not accepted in any societies that I can think of.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    June 6, 2008 at 9:55 pm

    “It’s no wonder they asked for monetary help from the US government. The money would surely help a cash-strapped government combat groups that appear better equipped with both weapons and manpower bought with the profits of illegal drug running.
    Yet, it seems that no amount of money is worth being held accountable to another country.”
    Mexico could help itself if its government had the will to collect the half of its taxes that go uncollected every year. Either you’re ignorant of this or you conveniently overlook it in order to be in keeping with the tenets of the blame America first crowd. I have to laugh at you, because you fail to understand that most of Mexico’s problems are caused by the failure of its government.
    U.S. citizens have the right to ensure that any money sent to Mexico doesn’t find its way into the pockets of its corrupt politicians or drug cartels.
    Frank is right. You seem to be more concerned with the dignity of Mexico, a country which shamefully cannot even provide a living for its own people, than you are for the disrespect Mexico shows for this country through its disdain for our sovereign right to defend our borders. If Mexico can be righteously idignant about strings attached to money generously provided by the people of the U.S., why aren’t U.S. citizens permitted to do the same, without being called xenophobes?

  • Avatar
    Horace
    June 6, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    To condemn a man for the actions of his ancestors is deep seated hatred indeed, and indicative of the internal rot that lies within Evelyn. To loathe one’s ancestors as a race is to hate oneself. To hate oneself is sick, which describes Evelyn to a “T”.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 7, 2008 at 5:10 am

    Sorry to disappoint you Horace, but I dont hate anyone. That is your expertise. The person I love most is myself. This is something I learned from my parents. I was very fortunate to be brought up by a very close-nit family. My grandmother taught me many wonderful things that have helped me enormously throughout my life.
    It is the people like you who hate that must have had a rough time growing up. How else could anyone harbor so much hate for people.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 7, 2008 at 8:37 am

    As I said, we cannot deny our genetics no matter how we were conceived. If my Irish mother had been raped by someone of German ancestry and that is how I came to be, I might hate my German father but I certainly wouldn’t hate EVERYONE of German ancestry.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 7, 2008 at 6:15 pm

    It simply amazes me that law abiding Americans who want our immigration laws enforced just like any other citizens of any other country are deemed as “haters.” By what demented reasoning can anyone reach such a conclusion?
    Guess when one has no viable arguments against why it isn’t ok for foreigners to violate our laws, borders and labor laws (especially when they just happen to be ethnically like oneself) one has to resort to name calling and false labeling of others. When one does this to an entire race of their own fellow citizens, I would they are the racist ones!

  • Avatar
    Horace
    June 8, 2008 at 5:11 pm

    “The person I love most is myself.”
    A narcissist, eh, Evelyn? Frankly, I don’t know what you see in yourself.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 9, 2008 at 6:10 am

    Healthy narcissism is self-love.
    What is the difference between self-love and narcissism and how does it affect the capacity to love others?
    There are two differences: (a) in the ability to tell reality from fantasy, and (b) in the ability to empathise and, indeed, to fully and maturely love others.
    The narcissist possesses no self-love. It is because he has very little True Self to love. Instead, a monstrous, malignant construct � the False Self � encroaches upon his True Self and devours it.
    The narcissist loves an image which he projects unto others and which is affirmed by them. The projected image is reflected back at the narcissist and, thus, he is reassured both of its existence and of the boundaries of his Ego. This continuous process blurs all distinctions between reality and fantasy.
    A False Self leads to false assumptions and to a contorted personal narrative, to a false worldview, and to a grandiose, inflated sense of being. The latter is rarely grounded in real achievements or merit. The narcissist’s feeling of entitlement is all-pervasive, demanding and aggressive. It easily deteriorates into open verbal, psychological and physical abuse of others. Maintaining a distinction between what we really are and what we dream of becoming, knowing our limits, our advantages and faults and having a sense of true, realistic achievements in our life are of paramount importance in the establishment and maintenance of our self-esteem, sense of self-worth and self-confidence. Reliant as he is on outside judgement � the narcissist feels miserably inferior and dependent. He rebels against this degrading state of things by partly escaping into a world of make-belief, daydreaming, pretensions and delusions of grandeur. The narcissist knows little about himself � and finds what he knows to be unacceptable.
    The second difference is even more important. Our experience of what it is like to be human � our very humanness � depends largely on our self-knowledge and on our experience of our selves. In other words: only through being himself and through experiencing his self � can a human being fully appreciate the humanness of others. The narcissist has precious little experience of his self. Instead, he lives in an invented world, of his own design, where he is a fictitious figure in a grandiose script. He, therefore, possesses no tools which enable him to cope with other human beings, share their emotions, put himself in their place (=empathise) and, of course, love them � the most demanding task of inter-relating. He just does not know what it means to be human. He is a predator, rapaciously preying on others for the satisfaction of his narcissistic cravings and appetites for admiration, adoration, applause, affirmation and attention. Humans are Narcissistic Supply Sources and are (over- or de-) valued according to their evaluated contribution to this end.
    Self-love is a precondition for the experience and expression of mature love. One cannot truly love someone else if one does not first love one’s True Self. If we never loved ourselves � we never experienced unconditional love and, therefore, do not know how to love. If we keep living in a world of fantasy � how could we notice the very real people around us who ask for our love and who deserve it? The narcissist wants to love. In the rare moments of self-awareness that he has he feels ego-dystonic (unhappy with his situation and with his relationships with others). This is his predicament: he is sentenced to eternal isolation precisely because he needs people too much.
    Based on my book “Malignant Self Love – Narcissism Revisited
    In case you didnt know racists are also narcissist. They lack the ability to feel empathy.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    June 9, 2008 at 2:40 pm

    Too bad that “unconditional” love doesn’t extend towards White Americans alive today, who played no role in the past history of this country and merely want our immigration laws and sovereignty as a nation respected.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    June 12, 2008 at 6:24 pm

    It does, I just dont care for unpatriotic racists. I pity them. I wish they were not racists.
    It must be very hard to be hated by most people in the world. You do know that most people in the world do not accept your racism.

  • Avatar
    Ex Back
    April 9, 2009 at 5:22 am

    I follow your blog for quite a long time and must tell you that your posts always prove to be of a high value and quality for readers.

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