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Latina Lista: News from the Latinx perspective > Palabra Final > Immigration > Does There Exist a Wider Rio Grande Between Northern and Southern States on the Issue of Immigration?

Does There Exist a Wider Rio Grande Between Northern and Southern States on the Issue of Immigration?

LatinaLista — A recent ABC News article about John McCain campaigning in Iowa and New Hampshire reveals some disturbing news about the electorates who will set the tone for this presidential race – they know next to nothing when it comes to U.S. Latinos, the U.S.-Mexico border, border security and undocumented immigrants.

Sen. John McCain in New Hampshire
(Source: Boston.com)

But the real clincher is that they think they do!


Just how much contact people in New Hampshire have with Latinos was brought home personally to me a few years ago during a family reunion. Some of my family lives in the Boston area. We caravanned to New Hampshire to one of those quaint little historic villages where retiree volunteers dress up in period costumes and conduct tours of the site.
As we were waiting till everyone had finished buying souvenirs in the little general store, our tour hostess, replete in 17th century costume, turned to me and asked a question I can honestly say I’d never been asked before: Why are some of you so dark?
I then shared with her our family history, or as much as you can condense Mexican/Spanish family history in 5 minutes. She seemed satisfied, not impressed, but satisfied that her question had been answered and proceeded to get into character.
Unfortunately, I was so shaken by her innocent question that I couldn’t help mulling it over in my mind.
Is it possible that in this day and age, in this country, that there can be a group of people so sheltered (and I’m not talking about the Amish) that they really don’t know what to make of people of a different skin color or heard speaking with a different accent?
I honestly filed that experience under the “doesn’t-get-out-much” heading and soon forgot about it until I read the article about John McCain. The following paragraph brought all those memories rushing back:

Earlier that day, a woman said she had heard that some Mexican-American children in American schools were refusing to put their hands over their hearts during the Pledge of Allegiance and other Mexican immigrants were flying the Mexican flag above the American flag somewhere.
McCain wondered if these tales that people are citing are coming from talk radio where immigration is a burning issue.

That would seem the likely source, especially since illegal immigration has been a fact of life for as long as I can remember but didn’t become an issue until talk radio and Congressional zealots decided there must be an invasion by Latino immigrants.
it’s rather ironic that these same people say they have nothing against legal immigrants, a.k.a. Latinos, as a way to appear they are presenting a “balanced” argument, yet will say such things as “Mexican-American children in American schools were refusing to put their hands over their hearts during the Pledge of Allegiance.”
When some African-American athletes didn’t put their hands over their hearts during the playing of the National Anthem at one Olympics, I wonder if these same people made a political issue out of it?
Somehow, I doubt it. And for a simple reason — there was no question in their minds that those athletes, no matter how disrespectful they were on an international stage, were American citizens.
For whatever reason, the allegiance and citizenship of all U.S. Latinos is now being questioned.
And the ones who are educating these most sheltered, removed or ignorant among us are a group who don’t have a clue as to how life operates in the southwestern part of the country, but think they do.

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Comment(41)

  • Avatar
    yave begnet
    December 26, 2007 at 9:42 pm

    The fact that Iowa, NH, and South Carolina get to decide who is president for the rest of us is no less than a travesty. It’s not even necessarily a rural vs. urban thing, or white vs. nonwhite, although those issues are also implicated by our current system. The other rural states don’t get to decide either, it’s just these two or three random states that have coronated themselves as kingmakers and everyone else goes along with the charade so as not to offend the few “authentic” Americans who make the real decision. I grew up in Utah and Texas and if I still lived in either of those states, I would be as pissed as I am now that I had no say in who gets elected president. Case in point: who in their right mind would have picked John Kerry over Howard Dean for the Democratic nominee? Or George Bush over John McCain? For that, we have Iowa, New Hampshire (for Kerry if not Bush), and South Carolina to thank–so thanks for nothing. I’m hoping that the mini-rebellion of Michigan and Florida continues and our anti-democratic (small d) primary system gets an overhaul.
    Also, to the question “Why are some of you so dark?,” you responded with remarkable civility considering what a foolish question it was. I can’t quite put my finger on why the question is irksome, but it’s more than just the ignorance it betrays. Then again, I wasn’t there, and it’s a question I’ve never had to answer, given my pale skin.
    I’ll note, regarding your reference to the protest by African-American athletes at the 1968 summer olympics, this passage from About.com:
    Because of their actions, the Olympic Committee barred them from competing in other events. Back in the United States, instead of receiving a celebration of their achievements, they were subjected to death threats and their actions were the subject of widespread debate. However, they did receive support from civil rights leaders.
    It was most certainly a political issue and a controversial one at the time. As SPLC and others have demonstrated, today’s restrictionist groups are the remnants and successors of the groups so virulently opposed to integration and equal rights for blacks back then.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    December 26, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    Mexico is like no other country.
    No other nation forcably sends its citizens to the U.S. and promotes it as a means of obtaining national revenue. No other nation’s citizens have come here in such great numbers, gained an amnesty and rewarded that generosity by encouraging their relatives to break our immigration laws. No other nation has had its emigrated citizens gain U.S. citizenship in large numbers, and still retain their loyalties to their former homeland by keeping duel citizenship. No other nation is permitted to establish a presence on U.S. soil for the purpose of providing specious identity papers (Mexican matricular consular cards) to aid and abet illegal immigration. No other nation is permitted by the U.S. government to promote participation in its national elections (Mexico) by illegal aliens and duel citizenship Mexicans-Americans. No other nation is permitted to interfere in the internal politics of the U.S.A. No other nation is permitted to advocate U.S. citizenship for its citizens with the expectation that it will maintain influence over those citizens. Moreover, Americans are called hysterical and racist when illegal aliens are called to account for their missdeeds, and Hispanic illegal alien advocates are accused of disloyalty.
    Is it any wonder that non-Hispanic U.S. citizens distrust their fellow citizens who are Mexican emigrees?

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 27, 2007 at 7:58 am

    I find it hard to believe that a tour guide would ask such a question. Even those areas not yet affected by the vast numbers of Hispanics in this country, can read a paper or watch the news on tv and they will find out. That is probably where they heard about the Mexican flag being put on top of the American flag in some places and that is true. I hadn’t heard about the hand over the heart scenario but perhaps that happened somewhere too, I don’t know.
    The reason that in the past few years that illegal immigration has become more of an issue is because of the huge increase in numbers that makes them more visible, the loss of American jobs, the increases in our medical and education costs, ads in Spanish and hearing more Spanish than English spoken in many parts of the U.S. It has nothing to do with the media. It has everything to do with what we hear and see on our own.
    If Hispanic citizen’s loyalty to America is being questioned now it is because it is hard to even tell who are here legally or illegally. Another factor is that far too many Hispanic citizens are supporting this illegal invasion. That puts into question right there, their loyalty to this country. They are their own worst enemies.

  • Avatar
    miguel
    December 27, 2007 at 10:51 am

    Frank write:If Hispanic citizen’s loyalty to America is being questioned now it is because it is hard to even tell who are here legally or illegally. Another factor is that far too many Hispanic citizens are supporting this illegal invasion. That puts into question right there, their loyalty to this country. They are their own worst enemies.
    Frank, I was hoping that 2008 would see a change in the views expressed here about Hispanics but I guess that that might not happen. I personally find the statement quoted above to be insulting. As a Mexican of United States origin so you can now add a third group to the Hispanic hysteria you chose to identify as ‘different’. Instead of moving onto the bigger issues of the country in our foreign policy with the rest of the world, both friend and foe, and a fair solution to our domestic issues we again lump everyone into a us and them.
    Your statement offers fodder to the hate groups that already see people of color as the enemy and you play the Patriot card. You assume that the very few people percentage wise that voice opinions about the immigration policies of the country throw this Patriot Blanket over all of us.
    This puts into question how close to your heart you put the founding principles of this country when you question fellow citizens that have fought side by side with you to make this country great. Focus in obtaining a solution to the problems at hand before trying to create a Patriot Divide.

  • Avatar
    Texano78704
    December 27, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    Horace is like no other propaganda machine.
    Mexico does not “forcibly send its citizen to the US,” much less does it with the pretense of obtaining national revenue. Mexico’s economic output is currently in excess of trillion dollars a year and the amount of money “sent back home” from the US only is about one or two percent of that trillion dollars. Your suggestion that the Mexican government is behind it is hogwash.
    Your assertion that Mexican immigrants that obtain US citizenship while “retaining loyalties to the their former homeland” is just that, an assertion.
    Last time I checked, a number of nations provide national identity cards (cedulas, as they are often called in Latin America), via their consulates here in the US, not just Mexico.
    Further, many countries allow dual citizenship, not just Mexico. So, your claim that Mexico “interferes in the internal politics of the US” really means that you are picking and choosing Mexico and ignoring many other countries that allow dual citizenship.
    I think it is pretty obvious Horace that you are indeed a hysterically misinformed racist.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 28, 2007 at 9:42 am

    miguel, so you are denying that the majority of Hispanic citizens in this country are supportive or sympathetic to these illegal aliens that are ethnically like themselves? Simple question, Miguel.
    Texano, Mexico inadvertably forces their citizens out of their country because they won’t produce decent jobs for them there. The remittances sent back home come to a lot more than the percentage that you suggest. Of course Mexico loves that. They inadvertibly push their poor on us and sit back and rake in the profits of their labor.
    There is no assertion that many Mexicans who gain citizenship in this country still remain loyal to Mexico. It is a fact.
    There is no other country other than Mexico that keeps sticking their noses into our immigration policies. Remarks by Fox and Calderon are readily available.
    And of course the predictable race card is pulled at the end of your post. Why does your side always have to resort to personal attacks and insults? Can’t any American be opposed to illegal immigration because it is the law without being a racist in your eyes?

  • Avatar
    Horace
    December 28, 2007 at 10:29 am

    “I think it is pretty obvious Horace that you are indeed a hysterically misinformed racist.”
    You’re a racist Texano78704. See how easy it is to pull that card. I’ll bet it makes you feel good to call your opposition racists, because it’s the pedestal upon which you gain your feelings of superiority. You feel that you’re right, so anyone who disagrees with you is a racist. How pathetic.
    If the Mexican government weren’t complicit, then why does it give advice on how to avoid our Border Patrol, even to the point of distributing maps? Why does it give out Matricular Consular Cards to aid and abet the violation of U.S. law. Duel citizenship gives Mexican politicians excuses for entering this country and electioneering. Imagine a Mexican encumbant speaking in El Paso to his constituency in disparaging terms about the U.S. This could happen. Imagine how this intentional divisiveness would be perceived by others who hold only U.S. citizenship. How would such a case be perceived in Mexico if our government did it for illegal aliens from our country?
    Why do Mexican-Americans, or those from other countries have duel citizenship if they do not have mixed loyalties? Can the U.S. depend on the loyalty of duel citenship holders if their second country becomes hostile to our interests. I can see a possibility that Mexico could go communist or wind up like Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela. The conditions for revolution in Mexico exist, in the form of economic injustice.
    Mexico is obvioulsy a different case than other countries whose citizens hold duel citizenship, as we hold a common border. Political interference from the Mexican government is obvioulsy perceived as more critical because of this.
    Name calling doesn’t give anymore credibility to your case, TEX, so grow up.

  • Avatar
    miguel
    December 28, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    Frank responded with:miguel, so you are denying that the majority of Hispanic citizens in this country are supportive or sympathetic to these illegal aliens that are ethnically like themselves? Simple question, Miguel.
    Frank, unlike you, I can not respond for any other citizen. Each one has the right or option to respond to your generic, loaded question. I only answer from my position of being Mexican and one individual.
    I support the efforts of all trying to get into this country legally and yes I am sympathetic for the plight of my fellow human beings that go to these lengths and suffering to get here. As bad as this process is, the alternative is worse.
    Having said that I am also sympathetic to the 10’s of thousands illegal Koreans in southern California for leaving their country. I would be interested to hear Horace’s take on the fence China is building to keep out Koreans and how the illegals that do make to S. Korea become instantly free as soon as they touch S. Korean soil. The others that come to the US from Mexico and Canada then are absorbed into the US Korean community with no outcry that I can detect. Their plight has to be similar to illegals from down south. Backlash?
    Question to Horace. Your view?

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    December 28, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Tejano & miguel
    You notice how when you hit a nerve the resident bigot’s turn into the demon from the Exorcist, and spew more green lies.
    No se dejen raza! Your intelligence exposes their Ignorance. This is your forum.
    Juntos, we can expose these xenophobes, and push them back to the dark ages where they belong.
    Meanwhile we keep moving onto the bigger issues of the country in our foreign policy, and a solution to all domestic problems with the rest of the world.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 28, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    Evelyn, just what lies have been told in this forum? Point them out or look like a child with your personal insults in here.
    miguel, you may not be able to speak for every Hispanic in this country but I am telling you flat out that most Hispanic citizens support this illegal invasion by their own ethnic kind. And we are called the racists? lol.
    Sorry, but no one gets a pass in my book. You either come here legally or you don’t come at all and that goes for Mexicans, Koreans, the Irish, etc.
    Where is your sympathy for your fellow Amercan citizens, miguel? You are being sympathetic to law breakers instead. We can’t take in all the world’s poor and that is why we have immigration laws. Since we cannot accomodate everyone, then they need to stay in their own countries and fix them.

  • Avatar
    Horace
    December 28, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    Miguel,
    I applaud your sanity and respect your point of view.
    My wife is a Korean-American immigrant and my nephews are birthright citzens. Their parents are Korean nationals and good friends to us. I am aware of the Korean illegal alien problem, the visa overstayers and the those who enter through Canada. As a matter of fact I know Koreans who are illegal aliens. They’re very nice people, as are most Koreans who go to my church. I have lived in Korea, consider that country my second home, and continue to vacation there, so I have some knowlege of that country.
    There is a difference between Korea and Mexico as far as literacy, knowlege of English and skills. Korea has nearly a 100 percent literacy rate, and Korean children must learn English. Koreans have a computer literacy rate at least on par with the U.S. Korea is an economic dynamo, having come from virtual distruction in the Korean War to a modern nation that has become a leader in the communications industry and producer of automobiles of the highest quality, and on a competetive level with Japan. Unlike Mexico, economic conditions in Korea are such that the driving forces for emigrating to the U.S. are rapidly diminishing. I suspect that illegal immigration from Korea will drop off quickly in the near future, if it hasn’t already done so.
    I do not condone illegal immigration by Koreans. While I would like my wife’s family to emigrate, because I like them, I would not support their doing so illegally. Their doing so would only result in the tragic consequences we’ve seen in recent days. While I believe that because of their educational level, and less likelihood that they’d become burdens on our society, I’d have to treat them the same as all other illegal aliens, humanely but with deportation as the only course of action. All illegal aliens should be treated the same, under the law.

  • Avatar
    miguel
    December 29, 2007 at 10:21 am

    Horace wrote:Unlike Mexico, economic conditions in Korea are such that the driving forces for emigrating to the U.S. are rapidly diminishing. I suspect that illegal immigration from Korea will drop off quickly in the near future, if it hasn’t already done so.
    Horace, I agree with your numbers. A quick Google shows S. Korea literacy rate a bit above 97% while of interest is N. Korea of 99% claim. You might have a better feel for that. Mexico comes in at 92%. A sad number in this day and age. Reflecting on it, It seems that all countries that we go to war with or aid after wars, turn out to develop into strong economic forces. US aid is put to good use.
    On the other hand the corrupt government of Mexico is sucking the nations oil wealth by the elite rich to the point that estimates are in that show Mexico IMPORTING oil in a few years. Investors for deep drilling are being kept out. Besides the nation suffering, the education system has a lot of catching up to do and the desperation will continue to grow. Any US aid provided is going into the pockets of the rich.
    S. Korea only got $100 per capita per year for the first 25 years after the peace accord but they had the military threat next door to motivate them to be more. Mexico has no pressure to help its people as the US plays to the feel good policies that are safe for the powers to be there AND here.
    I realize that as far as governments go Horace, S Korea and Mexico is apples to oranges, but I am asking that you that has seen what can be done when people care, what you can offer as ideas to bring solutions to these discussions instead of blaming the victims of corrupt government on all sides. Just as you hope Koreans can now start going back home, it is my wish that the day will come when all Mexicans that choose to can go home to a country that offers hope for their children and not the suffering they face today.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    December 29, 2007 at 10:26 am

    The lies I speak of are the ones you insist on printing every time you post here or at the other forum where you really show your Ignorance and racism.
    No amount of credible evidence can change your mind and have you see the truth. Truth is not included in your agenda. Your agenda is hate for people you fear because they don’t look like you, they don’t act like you and they don’t have the same color of skin that you do. When confronted by them you feel fear. That is racism.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    December 29, 2007 at 10:40 am

    Is there even one tinsi winsi tiny baby littlest thing you are willing to give a Mexican or Mexico credit for? Horace.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 29, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    Evelyn, why don’t you be specific? I still don’t know what lies you are talking about. Why do you keep avoiding my question?
    I don’t post in that other forum. I merely read it and it is shocking.
    What truth? Why can’t you be specific and stop beating around the bush?
    You are disgusting with your constant race card pulling. I don’t have anything against legal immigrants no matter what they look like. What is wrong with you? You don’t know me and yet you project things on me? I have never said nor implied that I hated anyone. I just want our immigration laws enforced and for immigrants to come here legally. Where is the racism and hatred in that? I have never been afraid of anyone unless they were threatening me with bodily harm. Where do you come up with all of this? It certainly can’t be from anything that I have posted. Again, what is wrong with you?
    Marisa, I am implore you to put a stop to Evelyn’s constant insults in here. Do I have to privately e-mail you?

  • Avatar
    Horace
    December 29, 2007 at 9:36 pm

    I’ll let you name them Evelyn, because I can’t recall anything at the moment, except maybe Mexican food. Call me ignorant, Evelyn, and enlighten us with a list of Mexico’s contributions to the world. Thanks in advance.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    December 31, 2007 at 1:37 pm

    Stop whining Frank!
    The list you want is already posted at the other thread, and boy it’s a doozie.
    I know you don’t post at HB, there you’d get a taste of your own medicine very quick with all the lies you post.
    But what about the forum where you have even made up your own language? Lets see….crimmigrants,…..chickkkanos, and crimigated, your so busted Frank! You know Frank the forum where you say you, “lie on one side, and then lie on the other”.
    The one who is disgusting is you every time you play your fake patriot card. Every time you post you imply you hate Immigrants especially Hispanics.
    The racism and hatred are on that list on the other thread, and at MB Frank. Racists are fearful of certain groups of people. It’s OK to be fearful of some people, and not like them, but it’s not OK to use lies to demonize them.
    I come up with all this because it’s true!
    NO FRANK, what is wrong with you? Stop the lies, and automatically you will stop branding yourself. Try it!
    Stop playing innocent you were begging for someone to come in and expose you.
    Thank you Horace, I really didn’t think you had it in you. Now you and the missus (who is an immigrant) can go out to your favorite Mexican restaurant, order margaritas and you can think up many ways to bash Mexicans while you enjoy your delicious Mexican dinner.

  • Avatar
    Texano78704
    December 31, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    You are still pretty hysterical Horace.
    You are right about one thing. It would be quite childish if I puffed myself up by calling you a racist. But that is not why I said it.
    But let us get to your argument. I noticed that you back down on your assertion that the Mexican government “forcibly sends its citizens to the US.” Now it is complicity, eh?
    And this complicity is based on handing out maps? If you were capable of using Google, I bet you would find out that two years ago the Mexican government had plans to hand maps of the border, but scrapped them.
    Complicity based on tips for staying alive when crossing the desert? I guess that is what you mean by “advice on how to avoid the border patrol.”
    And what exactly is your argument against the Mexican government providing matricula consular cards? That it makes it easier for the average, hard working, undocumented Mexican worker to cash a paycheck?
    Here’s a true story. I went to a check cashing business that offered to provide “free photo ID’s.” I used this photo ID in another state to cash my paycheck at a local bank. The bank initially balked about it, but they accepted it as a form of identification. I suppose in your twisted thinking, the check cashing store that gave me a “photo ID” was aiding and abetting lawlessness.
    With regard to “duel-citizenship” (please learn to speak English properly, it is dual!), why do you keep singling out Mexicans? Lots of countries allow dual-citizenship and there certainly can be some advantages to it, but nothing necessarily ominous. I’m proud of my heritage, but I’m not about to overthrow the government because of it
    You’re argument against Mexicans holding dual-citizenship is pretty similar to the argument that was used to round up Japanese-Americans back in WWII. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.
    As far as your argument about political interference, why aren’t you also complaining about Canada? Canadians can have dual-citizenship and Canada is just as close as Mexico.
    Allow me to answer for you, it is the obvious bias that you have.

  • Avatar
    EYES OF TEXAS
    December 31, 2007 at 3:48 pm

    Low riders, street gangs (MS13), baggy pants worn 4 inches below the hip line, Jose Jamenez (spelling?) and the Jalepeno on a stick. Only a few I can think of at the moment, maybe more later.

  • Avatar
    miguel
    December 31, 2007 at 6:39 pm

    Eyes of Texas wrote:Low riders, street gangs (MS13), baggy pants worn 4 inches below the hip line, Jose Jamenez (spelling?) and the Jalepeno on a stick. Only a few I can think of at the moment, maybe more later.
    Bill Dana (born October 5, 1924) is a U.S. comedian, actor and screenwriter who often appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.
    He was born William Szathmary in Quincy, Massachusetts. Although he is of Hungarian-Jewish descent, Dana created the heavily accented Latino character José Jiménez for the Steve Allen Show.
    Low rider comes from US Mexican-American community in part.
    MS-13… The gang names are commonly abbreviated as MS[1], Mara, MS-13, and are composed mostly of Salvadorians, Guatemalans, Hondurans, and other Central Americans.
    Baggy Pants… Low-hanging, baggy pants have become a fashion fad, mostly for young men in the hip-hop culture. Several residents objected that the ordinance targeted blacks. This dress is not exclusive to any one group .
    Jalepeno on a stick? New on on me. Where is the jalapeno identified with one group or country?

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 31, 2007 at 7:38 pm

    Evelyn, you have me mixed up with another Frank on the Mod-Bee forum. I am not “that” Frank. Now go ahead and call me liar, I am expecting it from you! I read the Mod-Bee forum also but I AM NOT THE FRANK ON THAT FORUM!!!!
    Any forum I have ever posted in, I have always been civil and don’t call names unless I am called them first. I don’t use words like crimnant nor chikano,etc.

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 31, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    Evelyn, I am going to repeat this to you once again just in case Marisa didn’t want me to mention the full name of the MB forum of which I did.
    I am not the Frank on that forum. He is not me and I am not him. I do not use words like crimnant nor chikkkano. You are barking up the wrong tree, Evelyn. Now go ahead and call me a liar again, I expect it from you.
    I do read the MB forum but any forum that I post in I have always been civil and do not name call only if someone calls me a name first. I believe in civil debate. I AM NOT THAT FRANK IN THE MB FORUM. Got it now?

  • Avatar
    Frank
    December 31, 2007 at 7:54 pm

    Quite the little hypocrite too, aren’t you Evelyn? You object to the word “chickkkano” and yet you use the word “Minuteklan”! I object to the use of both words as it is a misconception of both groups but then again I am not a hypocrite like you.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    December 31, 2007 at 10:53 pm

    Eyes
    Is this your shopping list, or are you trying to speak in tongues?

  • Avatar
    Horace
    January 1, 2008 at 11:30 am

    “And what exactly is your argument against the Mexican government providing matricula consular cards? That it makes it easier for the average, hard working, undocumented Mexican worker to cash a paycheck?”
    Thanks for the spelling lesson.
    The issuance of Matricular Consular Cards is aiding and abetting illegal immigration. These people have no right to cash a pay check in this country, as they are being employed contrary to U.S. law. The issuance of such cards encourages illegal immigration, as no illegal alien would come to this country if he coudn’t collect his pay. Matricular Consular cards are given to Mexican illegal aliens even though they may not even represent the true identity of the person whose name is on the card. In other words, Mexico is also complicit in fraud by its failure to require the necessary evidence to support such assertions. That’s what I have against Matricular Consular cards.
    I doubt that Mexico cares much about life or death of illegal aliens, as they do nothing to prevent illegal immigration. Their main goal is to keep up the flow, as it is in their interest to keep the remittances flowing. Moreover, they complain about every effort we take to deport their citizens, and claim that they citizens are being abused. This is depsite the hypocrisy of their own mistreatment of illegal aliens.
    “As far as your argument about political interference, why aren’t you also complaining about Canada? Canadians can have dual-citizenship and Canada is just as close as Mexico.”
    I’ve never heard of any complaint from Canada about the mistreatment of its cititzens. Canada provides for socioeconomic justice for its citizens, while Mexico’s response is to do nothing for theirs, except to encourage them to go north and provided as much assistance as they can to keep them in the U.S., despite our objections. Canada is a country where democracy and socioeconomic justice rule, and few citizens find need to move for economic reasons. Illegal immigration is not the huge problem with Canada that it is with Mexico. Even when Canadian illegal aliens come to this country, they are generally well educated and not prone to needing economic assistance or special educational facilities. Mexican poor contribute to our illiteracy rate, while Canadians, products of a good educational system do not.

  • Avatar
    Evelyn
    January 2, 2008 at 2:44 am

    Aaahhhh… the bliss of mucho loco horace
    Anyone who lives within the borders of the U.S. has the same rights as you, mucho loco horace, except the right to vote, and the right to run for public office!
    You’ll have to forgive mucho loco horace, he’s livin la vida loca of in la la land, where he thinks whatever he says is true!

  • Avatar
    Frank
    January 2, 2008 at 7:46 am

    You had better check with our government, Evelyn. Illegal aliens do not have the same rights as citizens and rightly so. That is a big fat lie!

  • Avatar
    Horace
    January 2, 2008 at 8:24 am

    “Aaahhhh… the bliss of mucho loco horace
    Anyone who lives within the borders of the U.S. has the same rights as you, mucho loco horace, except the right to vote, and the right to run for public office!”
    That’s why illegal aliens are deportable? Foreigners, whether legal aliens or otherwise are subject to deportation, while citizens are not. Isn’t that a little difference in rights, poco loco Evelyn?

  • Avatar
    EYES OF TEXAS
    January 2, 2008 at 8:40 am

    Ok, you got me. Just trying to lighten things up a bit. Not so serious somrtimes.

  • Avatar
    Texano78704
    January 2, 2008 at 11:42 am

    “These people have no right to cash a pay check in this country, as they are being employed contrary to U.S. law.”
    Horace, where do you come up with this stuff?
    Employers are illegally employing undocumented workers, but your argument omits any mention of employers who are breaking the law.
    It is a fact that undocumented workers are working here in the US. Your argument seems to be that, despite the work that they do, these undocumented workers don’t deserve to be paid for their work, especially if they are Mexicans, and if these Mexican do get paid, it is illegal for them to cash their paychecks. Would you care to cite the federal laws to which you are referring?
    “The issuance of such cards encourages illegal immigration, as no illegal alien would come to this country if he coudn’t collect his pay.”
    Hmm, according to your theory, only Mexicans enter this country illegally and work, because they know that they can get an ID card and cash a paycheck? Yeah, right…
    “I’ve never heard of any complaint from Canada about the mistreatment of its cititzens. Canada provides for socioeconomic justice for its citizens…”
    Wow, this Canada place must be some kind of utopia, because even in the Land of the Free, I hear about citizens being mistreated and victimized by a host of institutions including the government. More likely you are spinning a tale here.
    “Mexican poor contribute to our illiteracy rate…”
    Really? Please tell us how the literacy rate of Mexico compares to the US? And then explain to us why that makes a difference to someone who busses your table or picks lettuce?
    It really seems that your own misinformation is intentional Horace.

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    Horace
    January 3, 2008 at 9:50 pm

    “These people have no right to cash a pay check in this country, as they are being employed contrary to U.S. law.”
    Horace, where do you come up with this stuff?”
    It stands to reason Texano that if it is against the law for them to work here then they’re not entitled to a pay check. A lack of income is the outcome of not being able to work.

  • Avatar
    Texano78704
    January 4, 2008 at 12:40 pm

    “It stands to reason Texano that if it is against the law for them to work here then they’re not entitled to a pay check.”
    First you say that Mexicans have no right to cash a paycheck, yet fail to produce the law that specifically states that. And now, you say that Mexicans that work here illegally are not entitled to a paycheck, and consequently to not be compensated for the work that they do.
    Your bias is showing. Try reading Luke 10:7. Every laborer deserves his wages, in spite of you may think.

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    Horace
    January 5, 2008 at 10:42 pm

    “Your bias is showing. Try reading Luke 10:7. Every laborer deserves his wages, in spite of you may think.”
    Leviticus 24 verse 22 says, You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born, and
    Exodus 12 verse 49 states that “The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you.”
    Illegal immigrants commonly break our laws against identity theft. They should be prosecuted under the same laws that apply to citizens. I doubt that there are any illegal immigrants working in this country that aren’t guilty of identity theft.
    The Bible doesn’t apply here, anyway. Illegal aliens deserve only one thing under our law and that’s deportation to the country to which they hold allegiance.

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    Frank
    January 6, 2008 at 8:31 am

    The way I look at it is that it is the same thing as allowing a bank robber to keep his ill gotten booty.

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    Texano78704
    January 7, 2008 at 10:50 am

    “Illegal immigrants commonly break our laws against identity theft.”
    Commonly as in more than 50% of them? That’s a load of crap and you know it Horace. I imagine the most of them don’t bother with obtaining identification, much less false identification. If what you say is true, it should be easy to prove. Where’s your proof?
    “The Bible doesn’t apply here, anyway.”
    Because this is a moral issue that is a special case for Horace?

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    Frank
    January 7, 2008 at 3:11 pm

    Texano, pray tell how they are getting on the employer’s payroll if they are not using fake documents? Even those getting paid cash are breaking the law by evading taxes.

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    Texano78704
    January 7, 2008 at 10:05 pm

    “…pray tell how they are getting on the employer’s payroll if they are not using fake documents?
    You do live in the USA, right? Any immigrant, regardless of resident status and who does not qualify for an SSN, can apply to the IRS for an ITIN. For work and tax purposes, an ITIN works pretty much like a SSN.
    It takes about five minutes to fill out the form to request an ITIN. All you need a form of ID, like a passport or a cedula (national ID card, used in many Latin American nations). Check the IRS web site for the exact requirements.
    “Even those getting paid cash are breaking the law by evading taxes.”
    And every waitress you know pays taxes on all their tips? What we have is an illegal employer problem, but you Frank are silent on that issue.

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    Frank
    January 8, 2008 at 8:10 am

    No, you cannot get hired as an independent worker through a regular employer without having a SS number whether it be real or fake.
    You are being ridiculous here with your waitress analogy. Of course there are American workers who cheat on their taxes and they should be fined for it as they are caught. I don’t have a double standard here for American workers and I don’t think that two wrongs make a right either. But those illegals who are stealing identities and SS numbers to work are hurting American’s credit and in some cases even ruining their lives. So they are dragging innocent victims in with their crime of identity theft. And yes I know that identity theft happens by Americans themselves too but two wrongs don’t make a right. The answer is imprison Americans for that type of crime and deport illegals for doing it and secure the border so we don’t have more identity theft criminals coming in.

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    Texano78704
    January 8, 2008 at 10:58 am

    “No, you cannot get hired as an independent worker through a regular employer without having a SS number whether it be real or fake.”
    Hmm, you answer seems to be that reality does not exist. I think that there more than a few million exceptions to your “rule.”
    “But those illegals who are stealing identities and SS numbers to work are hurting American’s credit and in some cases even ruining their lives.”
    Um, that would be the exception, not the rule. Undocumented workers come here to work, not commit identity theft. Feel free to prove otherwise.
    In cases of SSN mismatches, SSA holds the funds paid into the system in a suspense account that now is in the tens of billions of dollars.
    “The answer is imprison Americans for that type of crime and deport illegals for doing it and secure the border so we don’t have more identity theft criminals coming in.”
    A little obfuscation here? I did not realize that securing the border should be directly linked to such a minor crime issue like what you call “identity theft.”

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    Frank
    January 8, 2008 at 8:58 pm

    You apparently don’t know what the requirements are to be on an employer’s payroll.
    There shouldn’t be anyone who has to suffer the ramifications of identity theft. We should take steps to prevent it in any way we can. One would be to remove and prevent illegal aliens from entering our country. It doesn’t matter whether or not their “intent” wasn’t to steal someone’s identity. Many find it necessary to do so to get a job here.
    You are not looking at the negative part of the equasion in stealing somone’s I.D. and SS number and the personal injury to one’s credit and the problems that can arise in filing an income tax return where there is money shown earned that one did not. I have a personal story about that one.
    It isn’t the government’s fault that there is income tax money in a holding tank that can’t be traced to who it belongs too. The illegals created that situation.
    Identity theft is not a minor crime. It is a felony. We should secure our borders for many reasons and you know what they are, you just don’t want them secured for your own ethnocentric reasons.

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    Texano78704
    January 9, 2008 at 9:29 am

    “You apparently don’t know what the requirements are to be on an employer’s payroll.”
    No, I’m saying employers don’t care.
    This B.S. about “identity theft” is just another way to advance a racist agenda.
    I have not suggested that identity theft is minor crime, only that it is a very minor issue with regard to undocumented workers.
    “We should secure our borders for many reasons and you know what they are, you just don’t want them secured for your own ethnocentric reasons.”
    You are mistaking me for someone else. I have never said we should not secure our borders. What I have said in the past is that “border security” is a B.S. cover to advance a racist agenda.
    If you were really about border security, the discussion would be about both the northern and southern borders.
    If you really about border security, the discussion would be about why the USCIS keeps loosing immigrant info.
    If you really about border security, you would want the government to be able to accurately identify whomever is currently in this country, regardless of status.

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