LatinaLista — Scanning today’s headlines reveals that even on a day devoted to expressing love and compassion — some in this country have a long way to go.
(Source: art.com)
In Georgia, a bill to allow the seizure of cars of undocumented immigrants is gaining popularity. The lawmakers say that these immigrants are breaking the law by driving without a driver’s license. Yet, they don’t take into account that because they’ve outlawed undocumented immigrants from receiving drivers license, they are the ones who have created this situation.
The bill says that even for a minor traffic violation the car of someone who can’t prove they are legally will be confiscated.
Feel the love yet?
Oklahoma has passed some of the most punitive measures against undocumented immigrants and it seems they are now a role model for Texas legislators.
Some Texas lawmakers are looking at Oklahoma’s success with their immigration measures to see if it can be reproduced in the Lone Star state. Among the Oklahoma measures is the felony it makes out of people who “harbor, transport, shelter or conceal undocumented immigrants.”
And Texas wants to emulate this? If that’s the case, then more than half the state would be felons.
Arizona is another state that has enacted extremist measures against undocumented immigrants, but at least there was some hope for undocumented students who wanted to go to Arizona State University (ASU) — but not anymore.
Proposition 300 barred undocumented students from receiving in-state tuition rates at Arizona universities. So ASU created a special private scholarship for these students called the Sunburst Scholarship. Private donors gave money to ensure that each student selected to receive the scholarship would get a $12,000 grant to help with school expenses and bridge the difference in costs between in-state and out-of-state tuition.
Well, not surprising in these economic times, the funds have dried up and now several hundred students who dreamed of college now cannot afford to pay for it.
But the surprising news to Arizona lawmakers is that these students aren’t going anywhere. They’re staying home, in Arizona. So, instead of going to school to earn degrees that will enable them to contribute to tomorrow’s Social Security System, which the state’s Sun City residents depend on to finance their days on the golf course, the kids will be loitering around town – bored and maybe even getting into trouble.
Seems like a no-brainer on which scenario is best for the future of the Grand Canyon State — for those who have the vision to look ahead that is.
Happy Valentine’s Day!
Comment(78)
Horace
If they’re looking for love, they can find it in the motherland. Judging by the brutal treatment that those loving Mexicans give to their illegal immigrant brothers from El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicuragua, etc., are they really deserving of anything different? They actually receive far more humane due process in this country than they give to their fellow Hispanics in Central America, even with the current hostility to there presence in this country. Maybe their hypocrisy is generating this kharma? Do you think? I wonder why you don’t address this issue. One of those inconvenient truths to ignore?
Frank
Yep, I’m feeling the love. The love for the rule of law of which this country is based on. Citizens and states bound together by love of their country to return it to a nation of laws that welcomes legal immigrants but not illegal aliens. Yep, I am feeling the love.
Jax
The only no-brainer is this:
The illegal immigrants should go home. I’d be willing to bet that they could go to college in Central or South America–assuming they had grades good enough to qualify.
I don’t understand why these people should feel that they have any more right to be here than the immigrant from Poland, Ireland, China or Canada for example, who waits in the “line” to gain legal admittance.
This country has enough problems without importing any from foreign countries.
Get over it!
yave begnet
There is no line. Repeat after me: there is no line. You can’t get a visa simply by applying and waiting patiently outside the country until it’s your turn. It doesn’t work that way unless you are rich, but then why would you be trying to emigrate here anyway?
There. Is. No. Line.
Frank
Line or no line, it is still against federal law to enter our country illegally.
Horace
Yes, Yave, no line. So what? This is no line for a good reason. It is because that no nation has as its social or economic objectives the importation of illiterate and unskilled. There is no, I repeat no moral or legal obligation on the part of this country to accept these people as immigrants. Even your precious Mexico shows contempt for its illegal aliens. We decide who is eligible to come here, not illegal immigrants, not the government of Mexico, not Yave or his communist reconquistas. Name one country, Yave, that would do so.
There’s no line for illiterate and unskilled Central Americans as immigrants to Mexico. I repeat, no line. Once again for Yave and the mentally retarded, no line for Central Americans who would immigrate to Mexico. No line, Yave. And there is no line for such people to immigrate to Europe, Asia or other countries in South America, for the reasons previously given.
yave begnet
I have to repeat that there is no line because one of the principal restrictionist arguments, and I will quote verbatim, is “Wait In Line Like Everybody Else.” It featured prominently in a few of the GOP presidential debates.
So I guess we won’t see that argument in this blog’s comments again, since everyone agrees it is specious.
Frank
yave, we do have work visas for the uneducated who want to do agricultural jobs. The problem is that illegal aliens have made themselves available to the farmers so they don’t feel the need to use those visas and hire legal immigrants for those jobs. Yet they cry about the crops dying in the fields.
I am not an expert on work visas but I believe there are avenues open for work visas for some other low skilled jobs too. The employers must show that they cannot find Americans to do those jobs first though in all fairness.
Frank
yave, another thing is that there are more immigrants that want to come here than we have jobs for (ones Americans won’t do for a fair wage). So even if there were a line, there would be too many in line and not enough jobs. The immigrants would still just jump the border then and offer to work for less to cut off those who are in line.
Evelyn
I posted the “Taxing Undocumented Immigrants” article in the other thread to see if those posters who invoke the “rule of law” in every thread were really restrictionist and staunch supporters of the “rule of law.”
Frank is the person who invokes the “rule of law” on every thread when protesting the presence of immigrants and Hispanics in this country, but totally ignored it when presented with plenty of credible evidence showing how the law is set aside when it comes to the treatment of immigrants.
The revolution against the British was fought because of “Taxation without Representation” yet when it applies to immigrants the hate-mongers applaud it.
The 14th amendment states:
….no state shill make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; NOR DENY TO ANY PERSON WITHIN IT’S JURISDICTION THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS
Slander and ‘defamation of character’ are against the law, but are used on this forum on a daily bases against Hispanics and immigrants. Instead of invoking the “rule of law” when this is done, Frank and others applaud those who are breaking the law and cheer them on.
What hypocrisy!
The vast majority of unauthorized immigrants pay MORE in taxes than American citizens do because they don’t qualify for the same deductions citizens do. WHAT? MORE IN TAXES AND THEY ARE NOT REPRESENTED WHEN UNJUST LAWS LIKE THESE ARE MADE???? Where is the outrage? The law, 14th amendment clearly states; “NOR DENY ANY PERSON WITHIN IT’S JURISDICTION THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS.”
The IRS permits a change of status from “Illegal alien” to “U.S. resident” so they (IRS) can collect taxes, by using what they call ‘substantial presence test’. To qualify, illegal aliens must be present in the U.S. thirty one (31) days during the tax year. BOOM just like that nothing to document, no paperwork, no line to stand in, you could be “JACK THE RIPPER” for all they care as long as they can get your money they don’t give a damn.
According to the 14th amendment that is against the law because they wont change the status of the Immigrants so they can work in peace or live in peace. Where are those who invoke the “rule of law”…………………………………………where is the outrage Frank…………..Horace…………..Nope only when it furthers their racists agenda of hate are they present.
Physically present for 31 days, just like that 31 days and every year for a few seconds while the illegal aliens pay taxes they are considered U.S. residents. It reeks of HYPOCRISY, INJUSTICE, UN-EQUALITY, and every other disgusting word I can think of.
How can we tax people more than we pay, impose our laws upon them, but not at least grant them any of the “inalienable human rights?”
Is that why we call them ‘illegal’, because as the bigots claim (every time they refer to the person of an immigrant as illegal alien), they don’t have a right to exist under the same freedoms we expect for ourselves, even though the law states otherwise? How many laws are we breaking by doing this?
Once again we find that those who support “rule of law” only use it to demonize and dehumanize immigrants. They no more support “rule of law” than some monkey in a tree. WARNING TO RULE OF LAW-ERS. Don’t whine when you get called HYPOCRITES along with liars and racists. You just proved you are also hypocrites.
John Lamb
Marisa,
Thank you for a thoughtful post. I, too, lament the lack of love toward our neighbors, and I touched on the subject of love in a recent post about the intersection of values, immigrant law, and the presidential race.
It’s amazing that people dismiss the importance of this crucial value.
Best regards,
John Lamb
Hispanic Nashville Notebook
http://www.hispanicnashville.com
P.S.: That post I mentioned is here:
http://www.hispanicnashville.com/2008/02/why-i-support-barack-obama.html
Evelyn
For the Ignoramuses posting on this forum who think we should treat immigrants the same way Mexico treats Immigrants coming into their country. I AGREE, the humane, orderly, no hassles process Mexico uses when foreigners enter that country should be copied in this country for sure.
Horace and the other racist hypocrites use lies to make it look like Mexico is inhumane in their treatment of foreigners. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a home in Mexico. I have travelled to Mexico and throughout Mexico, and have never seen or experienced any trouble with immigration. A 15 minute stop at ‘la aduana’ (emigration office) on the border and $20. is all one needs to stay in Mexico for 6 months. This can be renewed every 6 months too.
This article should pretty much debunk your lies Horace.
After you read this don’t come out swinging at me like you did with the last article I used to prove my point. Please contact the Mexican Government if you have any complaints about their immigration laws.
Digital Immigration Card Shows Mexico’s Progressive Views On Immigration
By Louis E.V. Nevaer, posted Jan. 14, 2008
Editor’s note: This March, Mexico will start to use digitally embedded immigration cards to track migrant workers. NAM commentator argues that this is just another step in Mexico’s long track record of of progressive views on immigration– one that America could learn from.
Mexico City—While Washington is at an impasse over the status of millions of people who entered the United States without proper visas, Mexico is unrolling a new digitally- embedded immigration card that will allow hundreds of thousands of temporary workers and visitors to come and go at will. This migratory card, in addition to having the bearer’s photograph and fingerprints, has electronic chips that can be scanned-facilitating the movement of people across Mexico’s borders.
“This will allow for a seamless and secure movement across the border,” a statement from Mexico’s National Immigration Institute said. The new cards will be distributed beginning in March 2008, and it is estimated that over a million will be in use by the end of 2008.
That Mexico is pursuing the model used in the European Union–where over two dozen nations enjoy free movement of people across national borders–is in keeping with Mexico’s historic commitment of striving to “regularize” the legal status of its inhabitants. This is not to say that Mexico exercises no control over it’s borders: In 2006 Mexico detained more than 182,000 people who entered the country illegally from nearby Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, and even far away China, South Africa, and Pakistan.
But through the 20th Century, Mexico has consistently granted asylum and sanctuary to immigrants fleeing political turmoil from neighboring countries. Mexico’s most noteworthy case of granting sanctuary occurred in the early 1960s, when thousands of Cubans sought political asylum by entering the Embassies of Latin American nations in Havana. At that time many Latin American Nations were in the process of severing ties to Castro, because of the U.S.-led push against communism-set into action by a resolution adopted at the Eighth Meeting of Consultation in Punta del Este, Uruguay, on January 21, 1962. Every nation who attended-except Mexico-broke diplomatic relations with the Castro regime. At that time, the Mexican embassy pulled off the impressive feat of evacuating some 1,000 Cubans in the face of the Cuban authorities.
This sensational case aside, Mexico has garnered praise for five instances in which it has granted asylum and sanctuary to massive waves of political and economic refugees.
In the 1930s, more than 100,000 Spaniards were allowed to enter Mexico unconditionally, part of a massive exodus of refugees fleeing the Spanish Civil War.
In the 1940s, more than 75,000 Americans, mostly from California and New York, established permanent residence in Mexico, as part of an exodus caused by McCarthyism.
In the 1970s an estimated 50,000 Chileans were granted asylum after August Pinochet seized control and established a military dictatorship.
At the end of the 70s, almost 200,000 Salvadorans who fled their nations civil war were granted Mexican residency.
In the 1980s and 1990s, an estimated 225,000 Guatemalans fleeing from that country’s counterinsurgency conflict were granted refuge in Mexico, in an operation so large that it was done in conjunction with the United Nations High Commutator for refugees (UNHCR).
Through the years, the underlying principal that governs Mexico’s approach is the fundmantal respect for the dignity of the individual-THE IDEA THAT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE WORLD WHO
IS”ILLEGAL. THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THEIR LIVES ARE HAPPENSTANCE, AND IT IS THE OBLIGATION OF GOVERNMENTS TO RESPOND TO THE REALITIES OF THE LIVES OF INDIVIDUALS.
Mexican officials, for more than a quarter century, have been frustrated by the recalcitrant attitude taken by U.S. authorities. American companies take out ads on Mexican radio telling Mexicans of “high paying” jobs waiting for them in the meat-packing plants in the Midwest and the southwest, while the American government takes out other ads warning them of the dangers of attempting to make desert crossings. That the United States is incapable of implementing a coherent policy is another matter. While Mexico is rolling out 21st century technology in the first quarter of 2008, the United States–after spending tens of millions of dollars on similar cards cant use them, since U.S. border inspectors are not equipped with the scanners necessary to read them.
Mexico, in fact, understands that their are times when a nation needs assistance. in 1981, after tens of thousands of Guatemalans began to enter Mexico, the Mexican government availed itself to the United Nations, and that body’s UNHRC entered into an agreement with Mexico’s Commission on Refugees, known as COMAR. It was than that an orderly process was established to help more than 200,000 Guatemalan families who sought refuge in Mexico’s southern states.
Mexicans believe that the United Nations can similarly help the United States. Mexicans argue that the time has come for the United Nations to begin a process of bringing the estimated millions of people living in the shadows of American society into the light. There is no reason why the United Nations cannot be brought in to assist Homeland Security and the Census Bureau to complete the years-long task of securing the United States broken borders, and regularizing the millions of immigrants who have, one way or another, managed to find their way to the United States.
Frank
I am against all law breakers, including those in our own government. But we first need to go back to the source of the ones who broke the law in the “first place” that created this snowballing effect of laws being broken by government enities…THE ILLEGALS THEMSELVES. The solution is to enforce our immigration laws, check all workers validity and right to work in this country and fire those who are here illegally and then there will be no taxation without representation problem. As I said, the only way to fix it is to go to the source of the problem and stop it there. The answer isn’t to continue to allow illegal aliens to work in this country and thereby being taxed and then them claiming they aren’t getting representation. Let’s nip the problem in the bud and get rid of ALL the corruption.
Frank
These are my remarks about Mexico’s immigration policies:
I read the entire thing and NOWHERE did it make any mention where Mexico allows these “hundreds of thousands” of migrants to obtain CITIZENSHIP where they will then be allowed to affect public policy!
As to the “open borders” in Europe–the same thing applies. There is a free movement of people between members of the European Union. However, there is no “RIGHT” for any European citizen to LIVE AND WORK in another country! All of the countries have strict labor laws which protect the jobs of citizens in their respective countries! In order to LIVE AND TAKE A JOB in a European country besides you own, you must obtain a visa and a work permit. The Europeans do not allow their own citizens to be displaced from jobs. Employers are held to strict standards and must prove that they cannot fill the jobs from within the citizen population. AGAIN, even if one can obtain a WORK visa, the European countries DO NOT AWARD CITIZENSHIP! It is very difficult to become a citizen in European countries, almost impossible in some. And NO EUROPEAN COUNTRY recognizes birthright citizenship!
Oh, and ALL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE THEIR OFFICIAL LANGUAGE AND NO EUROPEAN NEEDS TO LEARN THE “GUEST WORKERS'”LANGUAGE TO FUNCTION IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES.
Publius
Sorry to make you out to be a liar, Evelyn, but this refutes everything you assert:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0206migrantrights.html
Migrants mistreated in Mexico, report says
Chris Hawley
Republic Mexico City Bureau
Feb. 6, 2007 12:00 AM
Mexico’s human rights agency has accused officials in Sonora of mistreating illegal Central American migrants, saying detainees were jammed into overcrowded cells and denied food and water for hours during a crackdown last year.
The report comes as the Mexican government, under pressure from the United States, is ramping up efforts to catch thousands of foreigners passing through on their way to the U.S. border, and as migrant rights groups complain authorities are ill-equipped for the task.
Mexico’s National Commission on Human Rights said immigration agents “violated (migrants’) right to legality, judicial protection and dignified treatment” during a two-week inspection period from April 20 to May 7. Its report was released Jan. 19. advertisement
The inspection coincided with a crackdown in Sonora, said Maria Jesus Romero, regional spokeswoman for the National Migration Institute, Mexico’s immigration-control agency.
Immigration agents had set up checkpoints along major highways to catch Central Americans traveling by bus to the U.S. border, she said. They were temporarily putting detainees in police lockups in Caborca, 80 miles southwest of Nogales, and in Hermosillo, 170 miles south of Nogales.
The report said immigration agents held as many as 78 people in four cells designed for five people each in Hermosillo. Most of the detainees were Guatemalans, followed by Hondurans and Salvadorans.
The commission’s inspectors said there was not enough drinking water or blankets to go around, the toilets lacked water, and detainees were forced to sleep on the floors of the cells.
One detainee at the Caborca jail reported that he and six other migrants were denied food and water from 8:30 p.m. to 5 p.m. the next day. The report did not say whether the inspectors confirmed the complaint but did say they had received similar reports from other migrants.
Romero denied the migrants were mistreated.
“During the time of those highway checkpoints, it is true that the number of detainees went up dramatically,” she said. “But they were held in those police stations only temporarily and never for more than 12 hours.”
The National Human Rights Commission’s findings have no legal force, but the publicly funded agency has much prestige, and its reports are taken seriously.
Mexico’s constitution guarantees the right of free travel to its citizens, meaning Mexican authorities cannot stop their countrymen from crossing into the United States. But they are free to detain illegal border-crossers from other countries, and the United States has been urging them to do so as part of efforts to boost its own border security.
Many Mexicans empathize with these Central American travelers. But other people, especially in southern states like Chiapas, fear that Central Americans will eventually begin settling in Mexico and taking Mexicans’ jobs. They also are worried about crime brought by the Mara Salvatrucha, Central American gangsters who control the immigration routes.
On Dec. 14, new President Felipe Calderón announced expanded security measures to stem the flow of Central American migrants. They include new police task forces along the Chiapas-Guatemala border, an overhaul of Mexico’s visa program for seasonal farmworkers, and inspections to make sure Central Americans are in Mexico legally.
“I have the firm conviction that we can achieve a secure border and, at the same time, guarantee the human rights of all,” Calderón said in a speech in Chiapas.
Mexico’s Government Secretariat has also proposed tightening rules for detained migrants, the national newspaper El Universal reported Monday.
A secretariat document says the rules include fingerprinting and photographing migrants and would give immigration agents the power to deny them visitors for up to 20 days, the newspaper said.
Federal offices were closed for Monday’s Constitution Day holiday, so the newspaper report could not be confirmed.
Still, the Jan. 19 human rights report raises questions about Mexico’s preparedness for a crackdown, migrant rights groups say.
“Here in Sonora, Central American migrants are an afterthought,” said Noemi Peregrino González, director of the Nogales, Sonora, Migrant Support Committee. “There’s a lack of interest in their rights and a lack of resources to deal with them.”
Mexico deported 179,345 people last year, most of them Central Americans. About 4,100 of those were caught in Sonora. By comparison, authorities in Arizona voluntarily removed or deported about 500,000 immigrants in 2006.
“It’s fine for Calderón to say he’s going to protect the human rights of those migrants, but it’s impossible,” said Antonio Velázquez, president of the Maya Chapin Guatemalan Organization of Arizona. “The authorities will just be free to abuse people even more.”
I suggest that you know nothing about the corruption that exists near Mexico’s southern borders.
Horace
Evelyn, Mexico’s illegals are apparently not treated as equals in the Hispanic brotherhood. Maybe you should check on the southern border of your beloved Mexico and mingle with the peasants and find out the truth. Why don’t you take this to the UN? You won’t because you’re a hypocrite, preferring to whitewash the corruption of Mexico and blame the US for everything. You’re not a US citizen or a Mexican, but a stooge for the Mexican government:
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0206migrantrights.html
By Mark Stevenson
ASSOCIATED PRESS
10:04 a.m. April 18, 2006
Central American migrants try to climb on a train headed north on their way to the United States. While Mexican immigrants demonstrate across the U.S. for better treatment of undocumented migrants, Mexico’s own illegal population — hundreds of thousands of Central Americans — face robberies, assaults and extortion.
TULTITLAN, Mexico – While migrants in the United States have held tremendous demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central American migrants in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.
Considered felons by the Mexican government, they fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take all their money.
While Mexico demands the humane treatment of its citizens who migrate to the U.S., it appears to be unable to guarantee similar rights for Central American migrants to this country.
The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was underscored on Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard in central Mexico state shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made him look like a Central American.
Virginia Sanchez, a housewife who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, say shootings like the one Monday in her town of Tultitlan are not infrequent.
“In the night, you hear the gunshots, and it’s the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants,†Sanchez said. “It’s not fair to kill these people. It’s not fair in the United States and it’s not fair here.â€
Neighbor Maria Elena Gonzalez said police sexually abuse female migrants. “The migrants have told us that they detain them just to rape them. They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them.â€
Guatemalan immigrant Carlos Lopez, 28, who lay hidden in a nearby field waiting for a train heading north to the U.S.border, said Mexican police routinely rob and release migrants.
“If you’re carrying any money, they take it from you – federal, state, local police, all of them,†Lopez said. In the 15 days he had been traveling across Mexico, Lopez, a farm laborer, recounted how he had been shaken down from the minute he stepped into the country.
“The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river,†he said. They said, ‘You can’t cross … unless you leave something for us.’â€
Sitting nearby, Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.
“If you’re on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, ‘Get out of here,’†Ramos said of police in southern Chiapas state.
Others told of migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from the trains.
Central Americans, as columnist Gustavo Arellano of the Orange County Weekly pointed out, “are the Mexicans of Mexico.â€
Migrants generally acknowledge that Mexican federal immigration agents are among the more honest of the country’s law enforcement officers. The problem is, most migrants here usually are detained by police or soldiers, who technically aren’t authorized to enforce immigration laws. Meanwhile, Mexico objects to the United States using army and local police forces to detain migrants.
Among other ironies: Mexican-migrant activists in the United States hotly oppose a congressional bill that would make undocumented immigration in the U.S. a felony – but Mexican law already classifies it as such. The crime is punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.
The number of undocumented migrants detained in Mexico almost doubled from 2002, when 138,061 were caught, and 2005, when the number reached 240,269. Guatemalans represent 42 percent of those detained and Hondurans, 32.6 percent. Salvadorans account for most of the rest.
While pressing the United States for the legalization of millions of its citizens in the United States, Mexico has done little to legalize its own migrants: With a population of about 105 million, the government granted legalization to only about 15,000 migrants in the past five years.
Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. In a speech on immigration issues presented last year, Magdalena Carral, then-director of Mexico’s National Immigration Institute, noted that Central American migrants were not just passing through on their way to the U.S., but were also staying and looking for work in southern Mexico.
“There are sectors of the Mexican economy which face labor shortages, but because there is no formal or efficient method (for work visas), they have to do it as undocumented workers,†Carral said.
Immigrants here account for only 0.5 percent of the population – far less than the 12 percent in the United States – so there is little public sentiment against the undocumented as there is in the U.S.
Compared with many of those demonstrating for citizenship rights in the United States, Lopez, who was waiting for the train, is poorer – he comes from an area of Guatemala where the average wage is often less than US$1 (euro.82) per day – and he doesn’t plan to stay here forever.
“I think it would be good if you could work for two years, save up a little, and return to your own country with enough money to build a house,†Lopez said, adding that his dream house would “have four walls and nobody coming in at the end of the month telling you to pay the rent.â€
Jose Luis Soberanes, president of Mexico’s National Human Rights Commission, issued a report in December documenting many of the abuses of migrant rights.
“One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues,†Soberanes said, “is the contradiction in demanding that the North (the United States) respect migrants’ rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South.â€
George
Evelyn,
I found this on the Nevada Appeal web site.
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20080203/OPINION/872804342
Mexico could teach the U.S. a few things about border enforcement
Guy W. Farmer
For the Appeal
February 3, 2008, 4:01 AM
National Geographic is just about the last place I’d look for information about the illegal immigration crisis in our country. But the February issue of that prestigious magazine publishes a fascinating article about life along Mexico’s southern border, and the callous methods the Mexican government employs to deal with illegal immigrants.
Every time I hear Mexican officials complain about how we allegedly mistreat illegals, I think of how they deal with “undocumented” people who sneak into their country from neighboring Guatemala and the rest of Central America. When I visited Mexico about two years ago their immigration officials were boasting about how many illegal aliens they had deported. Good for them, I thought, that’s how all countries should handle the worldwide problem of illegal immigration.
National Geographic describes Mexico’s problem this way: “For many immigrants heading north, the first dangerous crossing is not the one into the U.S. It’s Southern Mexico, where the peril begins,” writes magazine journalist Cynthia Gorney. “Sneaking into Mexico is as easy as rafting across the Suchiate River … to Ciudad Hidalgo (Mexico). But on the other side migrants face ruthless bandits and officials demanding bribes.”
Ms. Gorney reveals that more than 400,000 Central Americans attempt the illegal crossing into southern Mexico each year, and that at least 150,000 of them are bound for the U.S. “It’s at the Southern Mexico border where the perils begin – the thugs, the drug runners, the extortionists in official uniforms, the police and migration agents who pack undocumented migrants into detention facilities before forcing them onto buses to be deported,” writes Ms. Gorney. And Mexico complains about U.S. border enforcement.
Tapachula, a border city of 270,000, is a gateway for Central Americans bound for Mexico and/or the U.S., but illegal immigrants bring many problems with them. Ms. Gorney interviews a Mexican shop owner in Tapachula who opposes illegal immigration on grounds that Guatemalans are “too servile,” Hondurans too “gang-inclined” and Salvadorans “too hotheaded.”
“When Mexicans talk about undocumented migrants in their midst, they sound like Americans: Resentful, sympathetic, patronizing (and) perplexed,” Ms. Gorney observes. Simply put, a double standard urges us to ignore illegal immigration while Mexico continues to dump illegals back across its southern border with Guatemala. While politicians and journalists use politically correct words like “undocumented workers” to describe illegals, Mexican officials don’t worry about PC niceties or legal technicalities when they round up illegals and summarily deport them.
Double standard
Here in the U.S. an illegal immigrant gets a hearing in federal court. In Mexico, an illegal often gets whacked upside the head before he or she is thrown into the river that marks the border between Mexico and Guatemala. If an American border patrol agent threw an illegal immigrant into the Rio Grande we’d never hear the end of it from Mexican officials and the ACLU, who’d be hollering about the alleged constitutional “rights” of immigrants. Again, a double standard prevails.
“Look, this (illegal border crossing) is a business,” a Mexican university professor told National Geographic. He meant not only the daily business along the riverbank, but also the broader interactions between desperately poor immigrants “and the fierce economic pull from the north.” That’s why illicit border-crossers are willing to pay “coyotes” (human smugglers) between $5,000 and $7,000 to sneak them into Mexico, and on into the U.S.
“More sophisticated international operations charge several times that amount to smuggle migrants who have reached Central America by sea or by air,” the magazine added, leaving open the possibility that some of those illegal immigrants come from the war-torn Middle East, where terrorism is a way of life. Consider that ominous possibility the next time a presidential candidate advocates amnesty disguised as “comprehensive immigration reform.” No thanks!
As I’ve noted many times, thousands of illegal immigrants are involved in the drug trade as the tentacles of Mexican drug cartels reach all the way into Northern Nevada. My guess is that most of the suspects arrested in a huge Tri-Net drug bust in Carson last month were illegals, as were those gang bangers who took a shot at a local sheriff’s deputy a couple of weeks ago. Our state prison system is already overburdened with illegal immigrant criminals, with more on the way.
The admirable efforts of the Carson City anti-meth coalition should include an immediate crackdown on illegals and gang activity. We should treat them the same way that Mexican authorities treat theirs – by deporting them right back to where they came from.
• Guy W. Farmer, of Carson City, served in Mexico and several other Latin American countries during his 28-year career in the U.S. Foreign Service.
Frank
The Europeans have the right idea. They put their country and their citizens first while still allowing legal immigrants into their countries as we do.
I read where the German government decided to restrict guest workers from Turkey; apparently, the German people have had enough of the Turks. See, they do not allow any accusations of “racism” to get in the way of doing what is in their best interests. The same for the French. They would NEVER allow foreign nationals to dictate their foreign policy. They would NEVER allow foreigners to tell them what language to speak in their own damned country. Can you imagine any foreigner going into France and telling the French they need to learn another language other than French to get by in their own country? Ha! Lots of luck with THAT one! Even the extremely liberal Dutch now require anyone who applies for immigration to Holland to learn Dutch. They also show a film during the application process about life in Holland; the message is that if the immigrant does not like the way life is lived in Holland, they should not immigrate!
In addition, while they have many nationalities living within their country, like I said, they do not award citizenship and so those who have no real emotional attachment to their country do not have a say in crafting the laws of that country. The French make the laws which affect the French, NOT people who have attachments to other countries. That is the way in most of the European countries. Although, they allow guest workers, these people do not have citizenship and have no say in how the country is run. And again, NO birthright citizenship. Quite different than what has been going on in this country. And look at the mess we are in now.
Publius
Love is easier to obtain from your neighbor if you’ve shown him respect. We’ve seen nothing but arrogant demands from the Mexican government or its people. Our neighbor kicks in our door, occupies our territory and tells us that we should love him. Love is given freely, not demanded. What Central Americans have earned is our contempt, not our love.
Evelyn
Frank
You say we have to go back to who broke the law. Well the way I see it we should start at the back of the line instead of the front of the line.
Would you consider it against the law for the U.S,gov. to install corrupt gov. officials in Mexico to suck their wealth out of Mexico into the U.S.? I do.
Would you consider the employers who offer the unauthorized immigrants jobs law breakers? I do.
Would you consider the U.S. gov. in violation “of consistency of a law” when the U.S. gov. looked the other way for so long creating the immigration mess?
If those laws would have been enforced consistently the immigrants would not have families here unless they were legal. I do.
How can you blame immigrants for everything and overlook the culpability of the others? Oh that’s right, I forgot you hate them!!
PPSSS…psss Frank I’m going to tell you a secret. The second article wasn’t about Mexican Immigration compared to European Immigration. The article only mentioned that the card, I repeat the card would be like the one used in Europe. Better get A comprehension test soon, that alzheimer’s might be getting worse.
Say, I noticed you sure like the immigration policies the Europeans use. Why don’t you move over their. The mother country and all. I hear Paris is beautiful in the spring time. If you go, take the others with you. Don’t be selfish and go alone now. LOL!
Evelyn
Publius
Is it something in the water, or are you and Horace competing for a DUMB and DUMBER contest. You did the same thing he did.
You came out swinging, by calling me a liar, for an article that I posted, but someone else wrote. ???? I did express my experience and what I have seen when in Mexico so unless you were a mouse in my pocket how could you call me a liar???
Having dispensed with greetings that match yours, I will continue. First, the article you printed is dated Feb.6,2007. Mexico is going to implement the new immigration policy in March 2008, next month. The article doesnt talk about the past, it talks about the future. Did you even read the part of your article where it states: “the report comes as Mexico’s gov., under pressure by from the United States is ramping up its efforts to catch thousands of foreigners passing through on their way to the U.S. border.”
The author of the article states “detainees were jammed into over crowded cells and denied food and water for hours, during a crack down last year. The lady in charge denied the migrants were mistreated, they were never held for more than 12 hours.”
Who is telling the truth? I don’t Know. But I do know that these officials are kept on a tight leash if the only mistreatment is not having food and water for 12 hrs.
Where did it say anything about peoples homes being raided in the middle of the night, gestapo style rades with guns drawn in the middle of the night leaving little children scared to death, separating families, mothers and fathers taken away into the night. No where does the article talk about the immigrants being detained along with their children at jails like Hutto Americas shame. Where is the article that talks about a woman from Honduras being raped while being held at Hutto by a guard while her children watched. I saw nothing about the Mexican government giving the immigrants psychotropic drugs without a diagnosis by a Doctor that the immigrant is mentally ill. These drugs are given without a doctors priscription to immigrants before they are deported to their countries. One 8 month pregnant woman was given these drugs and was disoriented when she was released on the streets of Guatemala city, where she wondered for 2 days and didn’t call her American husband like she was suppose to. Her baby died inside her and all the money she had was stolen from her. I could go on and on but I’m sure you get the picture.
Our immigration laws are a shame even compared to Mexico’s old system which is described in this article. There is absolutely no comparison. Why is it so hard for you to accept the accomplishments of Mexico? Why do you hate Hispanics so much? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Evelyn
Publius
I noticed your post about, “neighbor kicks in the door, occupies our territory.” I know you were not referring to the Hispanic Immigrants of today, you do know they all have jobs. They are invited by these jobs and the ads the companies take out in newspapers in Mexico, radio spots recruiting Mexican workers too. Our gov. didn’t try to stop them either. Right?
I guess you are referring to the invader’s from Europe that came long ago.
Evelyn
Horace
The guy who wrote this article you posted is misinformed about the act of a migrant entering Mexico without proper documentation or his presence in Mexico considered a felony.
That is not true. The word felony does not even exist in the Spanish language. Crimes are categorized as major or minor.
The date on that article you posted is April 18, 2006. The date on my article refers to March, now, not what happened 2 yrs ago.
I am aware that corruption by the cops in Mexico is rampant, so is the corruption and collusion between the U.S. gov, and the corrupt leaders in Mexico who are propelled into leadership positions by our gov.
Did you notice that your article states “migrants acknowledge that Mexican federal immigration officials are among the more honest of the countries law enforcement officers.”
No where does it imply that immigration officials are mistreating migrants.
Further along the article states “crime of being in Mexico as unauthorized migrant is punishable by up to two yrs. in prison, but left out the part of the law in Mexico that states the migrant can get this sentence if he is found to be carrying drugs or committed some other crime. When migrants are picked up in Mexico they are sent to their country of origin as soon as possible. They are not allowed to stay and settle and have families like they are here in America. The only way they can stay in Mexico Immidieately is by marrying a Mexican citizen.
Evelyn
George, Publius, Horace,
I an going to write a letter to President Bush today to tell him that I am opposed to the American government asking the Mexican gov. for help in stemming the flow of drug runners and unauthorized migrants entering Mexico’s southern border on their way here. I would suggest you guys do the same. I know all of you are against Comp. Immigration Reform. You want wide open borders and now you want all the migrants to come from Mexico without being detained at Mexico’s southern border.
Evelyn
George
After a quick search I found the original article by National Geographic that the author of your article used. The N.G. article dose not speak of any mistreatment by migration officials in Mexico. The author of your article states that when he was in Mexico the “migration officials were boasting about how many illegal aliens they had deported.” In Mexico migrants are not called “illegal aliens.” That would be considered rude, I’m Sure you wont agree with me but Mexicans are very respectful. Even the children are taught respect at an early age.
The Mexican immigration official boasting about how many immigrants they deported was trying to impress. After all they are following orders from the U.S. gov. I guess the author of your article would rather the migrants come into the U.S. instead of being stopped at Mexicos southern border.
The only other reference to the treatment of migrants by N.G. is, “the police and migration agents who pack undocumented migrants into detention facilities before forcing them on buses to be deported.” Why did he leave out, “the Tapachula migration station was recently built to hold 960 migrants and process them more quickly, the southward bound buses roll out every morning before dawn.”
The rest of this authors ranting about the ACLU made me more suspicious. I found another article by the same author where he actually parrots hate speech, He lumps drugs, immigrants and crime into one and the same, and talks about the “sinister side to undocumented workers.” This guy is clearly a racist who tried to whitewash his article and make it look like someone from National Geographic had written his openion into an article. Here is a link to the original NG article compare it to this guys views.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/mexicos-southern-border/cynthia-gorney-text/7
This is a link to the other article he wrote.
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20071014/OPENION/110140168&SearchID=73308960390412
Evelyn
Because I know that ‘SOME’ of you, even knowing that your argument is full of holes, will come back and try to lie, spin, twist, turn, misinform, fear-monger, push, pull, re-focus or do anything possible under the sun to make it look like your article actually did prove that Mexican immigration authorities did mistreat of abuse foreign migrants much worse than immigrants are treated here in the U.S..
I will not answer unless you have a better argument. All the gibberish some of you always drag in here will be ignored.
Ordinarily I would come out and play, because it gives me great pleasure every time you show the world how ignorant your arguments are. But I have some very important projects I am working on right now and don’t have a lot of free time on my hands. If you are guessing it has something to do with the election, you are right. I am very fortunate to be able to work for the Obama ticket.
I have OBAMAPHOBIA so be careful because everything is going to CHANGE. TA TA
Horace
Something important to do?Did Obama give you some poster paper and a crayon to play with?
Evermore looking like the village idiot, Evelyn resorts to denial in the face of documented facts. Publius, George and myself did not write the articles referenced above, and if you’d go to the web sites fort the articles you’d actually encounter the truth. The hypocrisies of the Mexican government cannot be refuted by sticking one’s head in the sand.
Frank
I don’t know how many times I have to say in here that the blame is threefold in this illegal immigration mess. 1. Our government. 2. The employers. 3. The illegals themselves. Some in here just don’t get it and they only want to blame 1. and 2. I blame all three because they are ALL breaking our immigration laws.
Our immigration policies are just fine, they just haven’t been enforced. We need to do that plus pass legislation to improve them. We can tweak them thru legislation that makes more sense of them like other countries. I don’t need to leave my own country to see that this happens. I am a citizen and a voter and we can make it happen.
Frank
LOL! Now that’s funny. Someone who constantly calls others liars first gets offended when they get called a liar back. We post our articles and they are called lies but when a certain someone in here posts hers it’s always the gospel truth. Gotta love the hypocricy, don’t we?
Evelyn
Take your head out of the sand Horace. I NEVER STATED YOU WROTE THAT ARTICLE, GOT IT? YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE OF WRITING AN ARTICLE! You’re more the cut and paste type.
Let Publius and George take up for themselves. I’m sure they are big boys and don’t need you to mess things up for them.
You just go back to your job as VILLAGE IDIOT and no one has to know. Dont worry, no one wants your job. It’s still yours. It suites you better than anyone else.
Evelyn
I’m glad to see you changed your mind Frank. In your statement you specifically stated “the illegals themselves” were the ones who in “first place” broke the law.
If I unintentionally lie about something, and someone presents the truth to me, I have the sense to change my mind. THAT is the difference between you and me. You choose to keep believing the idiots who are making the lies up, and have been discredited by credible sources.
Besides how can someone be called a liar (like I was) for what someone else writes? Think about it Frank. Instead of spending all your time trying to spin the truth or re-focus issues.
I’m going to go over this one more time so everyone can understand better.
I posted an article written by someone other than myself on another thread.
Horace, called me a liar for what the article said, so I referred him to the scholars who wrote the article so he could write to them.
Here on this thread I posted another article about Mexico changing their immigration system, and how the U.S. should also fix theirs. Everyone except you knows immigration system is not working the way it is now.
Publius, George and Horace posted old (1-2yrs ago) articles claiming that Mexicos Immigration officers mistreated immigrants on Mexicos southern border worse then the treatment Ice gives immigrants here.
The articles didn’t say they received treatment anywhere near as bad as the immigrants here have to endure. Those immigrants do suffer, but not at the hands of the Mexican immigration officers, and I proved that. I also proved some other enlightening things.
Horace
Try reading something other than the comics section of the newspapers, Evelyn. Unless you believe that everyone has it in for Mexico, you are just plain wrong about the way they treat their illegal immigrants. Try a Google search on your own and find out the truth. This hypocrisy is exactly why Mexico isn’t getting any respect from US citizens on the issue of illegal immigration.
This from Christian News:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/060815a.aspx
Mexixo’s Illegal Immigrants
Mexico’s Harsh Treatment of Illegals
By Dale Hurd
CBNNews.com – MEXICO CITY, Mexico – For the past month, America’s attention has been focused on the Middle East war. During that time, another 300,000 illegal aliens have crossed America’s border with Mexico. But you won’t believe how Mexico treats its illegal aliens.
Illegal aliens from Mexico were allowed to march through America’s cities, demanding citizenship – some even waved the Mexican flag. But illegal aliens inside Mexico, mostly from Guatemala and Honduras, are literally on the run.
Some travel by train and some hide, trying to stay one step ahead of the Mexican Federal Police.
The Mexican government was outraged by the movement to build a new wall on America’s southern border. Mexico’s Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez went before the cameras to protest.
Derbez said, “Mexican immigrants are not felons or terrorists. They are human beings who deserve respect and the opportunity to live with dignity.”
But in Mexico, when it comes to the treatment of its illegal aliens it’s, ‘Do as I say, not as I do.’
Mexico has called U.S. immigration policy “harsh,” and has called the proposed wall on the U.S. Mexico border “shameful.” But some have called the Mexican immigration policy “hypocritical.”
Enter Mexico illegally and you’re treated as a felon. If you’re caught by the Federal Police, you’ll be fortunate if you’re only deported immediately. The unfortunate are robbed, abused, raped, or even murdered by corrupt police officers.
Fernando Aguilar Neri coordinates Red Cross efforts to help illegal aliens in Mexico.
“When people approach us, they are usually fearful that we work with the government and are afraid of being reported,†said Neri. “…One of the seven principles of the Red Cross is complete neutrality and independence, so we can’t cooperate with the Mexican government on the illegal alien issue.â€
Neri says that most illegals moving through Mexico try to avoid the cities.
The Catholic Church also shields illegal aliens from the Mexican government. CBN found two shelters for illegals in Mexico City, but weren’t allowed inside.
Most of the Central Americans inside are on their way to the United States. They’ll be fortunate if they arrive unharmed.
One immigrant from El Salvador said, “If you are carrying any money, the police take the money and then say, get out of here.”
“We still have 20 days of travel (to reach the United States),” another one said.
But if you’re a Mexican wanting to enter the U.S. illegally, then you can count on the Mexican government’s help and support. It even has a special department called Grupos Beta that helps Mexicans cross the U.S. border illegally.
But in an interview with CBN News, the head of Mexico’s Immigration Service, Hipolito Treviño, denied it.
“Grupos Beta is the Mexican government initiative which does not help people cross the border, but they do assist them when they have problems in the border area,†Trevino said.
But Grupos Beta gives them a booklet, which includes tips on how to safely cross the U.S border. Trevino denied the allegation that immigrants are also given maps by the government.
“No maps,†he said. “We give them recommendations about the dangerous animals they’ll encounter, how much water they need every day, what to do in case they get lost, what to do in case they get detained by the border patrol, which paths are dangerous because of crime.â€
The reason for the government’s help? The cash sent home by Mexicans in the U.S. constitutes the second biggest source of foreign currency in Mexico after the oil industry. Last year that was $20 billion, or 2 percent of Mexico’s GDP.
About 10 percent of Mexico’s population is now living in the United States, that’s over 10 million people. And how many illegal aliens in its own country has Mexico legalized in the past five years? Just 15,000.
The Mexican government may think a new wall on the U.S. border is offensive, but critics are saying far worse things about Mexico’s immigration policy.
Mexico wants migrant rights in U.S., but is harsh to undocumented Central Americans
This from Associated Press: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20060418-1004-mexico-mistreatingmigrants.html
Mexico wants migrant rights in U.S., but is harsh to undocumented Central Americans
By Mark Stevenson
ASSOCIATED PRESS
10:04 a.m. April 18, 2006
Central American migrants try to climb on a train headed north on their way to the United States. While Mexican immigrants demonstrate across the U.S. for better treatment of undocumented migrants, Mexico’s own illegal population — hundreds of thousands of Central Americans — face robberies, assaults and extortion.
TULTITLAN, Mexico – While migrants in the United States have held tremendous demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central American migrants in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.
Considered felons by the Mexican government, they fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take all their money.
While Mexico demands the humane treatment of its citizens who migrate to the U.S., it appears to be unable to guarantee similar rights for Central American migrants to this country.
The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was underscored on Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard in central Mexico state shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made him look like a Central American.
Virginia Sanchez, a housewife who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, say shootings like the one Monday in her town of Tultitlan are not infrequent.
“In the night, you hear the gunshots, and it’s the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants,†Sanchez said. “It’s not fair to kill these people. It’s not fair in the United States and it’s not fair here.â€
Neighbor Maria Elena Gonzalez said police sexually abuse female migrants. “The migrants have told us that they detain them just to rape them. They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them.â€
Guatemalan immigrant Carlos Lopez, 28, who lay hidden in a nearby field waiting for a train heading north to the U.S.border, said Mexican police routinely rob and release migrants.
“If you’re carrying any money, they take it from you – federal, state, local police, all of them,†Lopez said. In the 15 days he had been traveling across Mexico, Lopez, a farm laborer, recounted how he had been shaken down from the minute he stepped into the country.
“The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river,†he said. They said, ‘You can’t cross … unless you leave something for us.’â€
Sitting nearby, Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.
“If you’re on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, ‘Get out of here,’†Ramos said of police in southern Chiapas state.
Others told of migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from the trains.
Central Americans, as columnist Gustavo Arellano of the Orange County Weekly pointed out, “are the Mexicans of Mexico.â€
Migrants generally acknowledge that Mexican federal immigration agents are among the more honest of the country’s law enforcement officers. The problem is, most migrants here usually are detained by police or soldiers, who technically aren’t authorized to enforce immigration laws. Meanwhile, Mexico objects to the United States using army and local police forces to detain migrants.
Among other ironies: Mexican-migrant activists in the United States hotly oppose a congressional bill that would make undocumented immigration in the U.S. a felony – but Mexican law already classifies it as such. The crime is punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.
The number of undocumented migrants detained in Mexico almost doubled from 2002, when 138,061 were caught, and 2005, when the number reached 240,269. Guatemalans represent 42 percent of those detained and Hondurans, 32.6 percent. Salvadorans account for most of the rest.
While pressing the United States for the legalization of millions of its citizens in the United States, Mexico has done little to legalize its own migrants: With a population of about 105 million, the government granted legalization to only about 15,000 migrants in the past five years.
Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. In a speech on immigration issues presented last year, Magdalena Carral, then-director of Mexico’s National Immigration Institute, noted that Central American migrants were not just passing through on their way to the U.S., but were also staying and looking for work in southern Mexico.
“There are sectors of the Mexican economy which face labor shortages, but because there is no formal or efficient method (for work visas), they have to do it as undocumented workers,†Carral said.
Immigrants here account for only 0.5 percent of the population – far less than the 12 percent in the United States – so there is little public sentiment against the undocumented as there is in the U.S.
Compared with many of those demonstrating for citizenship rights in the United States, Lopez, who was waiting for the train, is poorer – he comes from an area of Guatemala where the average wage is often less than US$1 (euro.82) per day – and he doesn’t plan to stay here forever.
“I think it would be good if you could work for two years, save up a little, and return to your own country with enough money to build a house,†Lopez said, adding that his dream house would “have four walls and nobody coming in at the end of the month telling you to pay the rent.â€
Jose Luis Soberanes, president of Mexico’s National Human Rights Commission, issued a report in December documenting many of the abuses of migrant rights.
“One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues,†Soberanes said, “is the contradiction in demanding that the North (the United States) respect migrants’ rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South.â€
This from Migration News, UC Davis:
Illegal Immigrants and Devaluation in Mexico
In the aftermath of Mexican criticism of Operation Gatekeeper and Prop. 187, there have been several reports of harsh Mexican policies toward illegal immigrants in Mexico. Although there are no “official” data on apprehensions and expulsions, it is estimated that the number of mostly Central Americans removed from Mexico during the first 11 months of 1994 averages 5,000 to 6,000 per month (Dec. MN). There were reportedly 143,000 illegal aliens removed from Mexico in 1993, and 90,000 in 1990.
Mexico’s National Migration Institute reported that 3,651 illegal aliens were “deported” between January and November, suggesting that most illegal aliens are removed from Mexico informally rather than after a legal process.
Mexico issues about 125,000 work permits to foreign workers each year. A public education is guaranteed to all children in Mexico, but most schools require a birth certificate or a passport and visa to establish the identity of the child. This means that the children of illegal aliens are often barred from Mexican public schools. There have been roundups at hospitals to which undocumented Central Americans go to seek medical treatment.
Many of the illegal aliens in Mexico are Guatemalans employed in jobs that range from picking coffee beans to construction and maids. Violations of Mexico’s minimum wage, and of basic human rights standards, are reportedly widespread where illegal Central Americans are employed.
There have been charges that Central Americans suffer rapes, beatings, extortion, and robbery at the hands of Mexican employers and police. One advocate for unauthorized Central Americans in Mexico is Tapachula bishop Jorge Arizmendi, who hopes that Prop. 187 will put Mexico’s treatment of undocumented workers onto Mexico’s national agenda. Some immigrants from Central America say that they were treated far worse in Mexico than the US.
The potential embarrassment from these complaints to President Zedillo after his denunciations of Prop. 187 reportedly prompted the Mexican government to undertake a thorough review of its immigration policies and their enforcement. In the past, Mexico has ignored Central Americans passing through to the US, but now that some are apparently staying in relatively wealthier Mexico, the government feels compelled to act. Mexico has increased the number of roadblocks near its border with Guatemala.
Mexican GDP per capita ($3470 in 1992) is 3.5 times the Guatemalan level of $980; picking coffee beans in Mexico pays twice as much as the same job in Guatemala. About 40,000 Guatemalans live in camps for political refugees in the state of Campeche. During his campaign, President Zedillo had promised more public spending to help the Mexican poor and to offset the inequality that accompanied Mexico’s boom, and lower interest rates to spur foreign and domestic investment in Mexican factories, housing, and infrastructure.
Mexico was headed for a deficit in its current account trade balance of $30 billion in 1994, equivalent to almost eight percent of its $395 billion GDP. Its reserves fell from $30 billion early in 1994 to $6 billion on December 22 as Mexico attempted to support the peso at a rate of 3.45 pesos to $1. Nonetheless, Mexico’s new Finance Minister, Jaime Serra Puche, confidently predicted in mid-December that the economy would grow by four percent in 1995, and that the peso-dollar exchange rate would remain stable.
On December 19, Zapatista rebels reported falsely that they had taken over 38 towns in Chiapas. On December 20, Mexico devalued the peso, and it eventually fell over 40 percent, from 3.4 pesos to $1 to 5.7 pesos to $1, before settling at 5 pesos to $1 on December 29. Mexican interest rates jumped to 40 percent, credit dried up as banks stopped lending, the Mexican stock market fell sharply, and there were fears that Mexico would not have enough dollars to pay the interest it owes on its foreign debts.
According to the estimates of University of California, Davis economist Ed Taylor, a 10 percent devaluation of the peso could increase Mexico-to-US migration by 17 percent (March MN). If this village-based estimate proves to be correct, there is likely to be a surge in Mexico-to-US migration.
The Mexican explanation for the devaluation–to offset the capital flight associated with Zapatista activity in Chiapas– was described in the US as an attempt to cover-up fundamental economic problems. Some predicted that the peso devaluation would be a blow to foreigners’ confidence in the Mexican economy. Foreigners have $75 billion invested in Mexican financial markets, and there were fears of a capital flight in 1995..
Mexico plans more privatization and stricter enforcement of rules designed to promote competition in 1995, but it remains dependent on foreign investment for the job creation needed to absorb one million new workforce entrants each year. Mexican exports and internal savings are not sufficient to pay for the country’s imports, making Mexico dependent on an inflow of foreigners’ savings. As interest rates rose in the US and elsewhere, speculators bet that Mexico too would have to raise interest rates, and that rising rates would slow economic growth in Mexico, forcing Mexico to devalue the peso.
Devaluing the peso makes Mexican exports cheaper and more attractive to foreign buyers, but it also fuels inflation in Mexico. The Mexican government has promised to cut government spending and allow interest rates to rise to prevent an inflationary surge, but this means that the country risks recession that may also reduce the attractiveness of the country to foreigners.
Frank
We anti’s in here have been called liars and racists many times just because we agree with a certain article or statistic or a certain person in the media. That doesn’t mean that we have allowed them to influence us, it just means using our own common sense or even our own personal experiences and research that our views happen to coincide with one another. Yet the pro’s think it alright for them to do likewise and get their feathers all ruffled if we challenge them on it or try to defend ourselves from their initial verbal attacks on us.
Evelyn
If you had any common sense you wouldn’t be believing lies when presented with the truth, unless you had a gun to your head. LOL! Only ignorant people believe lies, or racist who make the lies up and use them fully aware that they are lies, to demonize people they hate.
Frank
It doesn’t matter whether I believe in a certain statistic or not. I am not likley to be swayed by a statistic presented by either side as they both claim to have the actual facts. Both sides can and do use biased information and claim it as truth. I don’t dwell on those things anyway. My position on illegal immigration is based on our laws and just plain common sense.
Frank
The pro’s do the same thing. They demonize all Americans who are opposed to illegal immigration even those who don’t have a racist agenda. They put us all in one group as racits, and haters. They especially hate and like to demonize White Americans.
I could point out a forum that is an excellent example of that but you already know who I am talking about.
EYES OF TEXAS
OBAMAPHOBIA, very good. That is a phobia a lot of Americans have, including myself. Phobia–an irrational and excessive fear of an object or situation which in most cases involves a sense of endangerment or a fear of harm. That is a fear of a man that will put this nation on a road to destruction if given the power of the Presidency. His slogans of HOPE and CHANGE are hollow words that mean Hope for the best and CHANGE for the worst. The empty suit doesn’t have the experience nor the knowledge to guide this country in a positive direction. His rock star image is a creation of media hype and a following of young voters who do not have a clue about the issues or the political system.
A phobia of Obama is very justified and should be spread far and wide before it’s too late. As the first Black President (God forbid) he will do well to keep his head low and his secret service protection at full force. Whether you like it or not, face the fact that his life will be in constant danger from those that will never accept him as President. People keep comparing him to MLK and JFK and their lives were cut short by people that did not agree with their views and/or policies. Only facing the cold hard possibilities here, and am not promoting or condoning such actions.
Frank
Also, I don’t hang out in forums RUN by racists who verbally attack a particular race all the time and chime in and say “Amen Brother.” I have nothing against legal Hispanics or any other citizen group who respects our laws. I do read forums with both points of view on immigration like in here and when someone starts being insulting and pulling the race card, I will call them on it. I believe in debating civilly, not behaving like a three year old.
Texano78704
“OBAMAPHOBIA… a fear of a man that will put this nation on a road to destruction if given the power of the Presidency.”
Why not just keep it simple and call him Satan?
Ha! Fear politics have not been working so well since 2006, or have you not noticed. McCain, the Bush reincarnation of fear politics may find it bit difficult in 2008 as well.
“Only facing the cold hard possibilities here, and am not promoting or condoning such actions.”
Yeah, right…
There is the cold, hard possibility that a policeman will get shot by a criminal. Should he cower at home instead?
You must get paid by the post, because you aren’t adding anything to the discussion here.
Horace
“In Mexico migrants are not called “illegal aliens.” That would be considered rude, I’m Sure you wont agree with me but Mexicans are very respectful. Even the children are taught respect at an early age.”
Sure, the police are very polite when they rape the women and beat the men and rob them. You’re so pathetically naive that it makes me sick. Has the U.S. given the federales and local police instructions to do that as well? I suppose those drug dealers severing heads and murdering government officials on the border say please before every request made of those they torment. Every society has such people, so don’t try to whitewash Mexico as if it were a storybookland of saints. Polite my ass. There are none so blind than those who would not see.
Evelyn
Mod-b is run by racist and so is that other forum you post at.
The racists here on this forum verbally attack Hispanic immigrants every day, and fully support racism, you just try to cover things up with these lies you posted.
Talk about insulting, remember pot, kettle, black? How about when you suggested I had alzheimer’s? Did you have a conversation with my doctor? I think not!
You say I insult you by calling you a liar, yet you lie often and choose to parrot lies from racists groups you defend and support. (minutemen)
By supporting and defending these types of racist hate groups and choosing to parrot their lies that makes you a racist just like them.
I don’t understand why you would feel insulted when I call you a liar or a racist when you are the one who chooses to cloak yourself with these despicable images.
Hypocrite is another name you have earned by supporting laws that harm immigrants and their families, and rejecting laws that would uphold justice and equality for immigrants and their families, which by the way, are granted them by our constitution. Only a hypocrite would do that.
Ignorant is another name I have called you. Wouldent you agree that anyone who openly chooses to embrace racism, lying, and hypocrisy, is ignorant?
Evelyn
How would you know anything about Mexico, when you’ve never been anything but the idiot of your village. I’m sure you never left your village, so shut up and stick to what you do best.
Frank
I already told you that I am not the Frank that posts in Mod-Bee! How many times do I have to tell you that? The Mod-Bee forum is run by the newspaper, it is not privately owned. So no, it isn’t run by racists. The newspaper just allows both points of view in there.
So, being opposed to illegal aliens (why would you just say Hispanic?) of all flavors (not immigrants and not as your lies imply) is “attacking” them? Is being opposed to bank robbers also considered to be “attacking” them?
I don’t parrot anyone. My views are my own. How many times do I have to repeat that to you too?
You parrot those racists in the HB forum too. Did you chastize any of those in there that call White people names or say we should nuke Arizona for it’s policies on illegal immigration? NO, YOU JUST PARROTED AND AGREED WITH THEM!
Speaking of lies, why do you call illegals, “immigrants”? That is a bald faced lie too.
I don’t embrace hypocricy, lies and racism, you do!
Texano78704
“Sure, the police are very polite when they rape the women and beat the men and rob them.”
It is very easy to decry corruption of the law enforcement and government entities of other nations. But it is hypocritical when you consider that the corruption is widely funded by the US public’s drug habit.
Evelyn
Spinning isn’t going to change the truth Frank.
You guys over at the BEE are really upset over the joke we started at Christmas about nuking AZ., aren’t you. Dont worry Frank, it was just a joke, we don’t rely on violance like you KKKers do.
We use our intelligence to advocate for justice, equality and change. We leave the gun totin, violent behavior to you. LOL!
Horace
Evelyn, thus far you fifth columnists are losing. Arizona, Oklahoma and Missouri federal courts have sided with the states in their efforts to enact anti-illegal immigrant legislation. That’s three against the one win against Hazleton. And there is no doubt in my mind the Third Court of Appeals in Pennsylvania will overturn Judge Munley’s decision. Other states seeing the blood in the water are modeling their new employment and rental legislation on Oklahoma’s success. Utah, Virginia, Oregon, New Jersey, Wisconsin, and, with new states everyday are proposing the enactment of new legislation to take back our nation’s sovereignty. Deny it, as I know you will, but your side is a big loser. Neither Frank nor I need to engage in violence or defamation of character to win, because we have courts to support us. Thus far your reliance on “intelligence” is an abject failure. Maybe you can put up some of the repatriated in your home in Mexico. LOL.
Frank
The so-called joke about nuking Arizona was something said just recently, not at Christmas but that is beside the point anyway. What about the “whitebread” remark made about nuking Arizona? You can back peddle all you want. It isn’t a joke. There have been many racist remarks made about white people in HB (even by you) are they all jokes too? If you aren’t going to stand up to people who say such racist things then you are a racist too.
“You” KKKers? There you go accusing me of nasty things again. That was just plain hateful and childish. I don’t approve of any racist groups and that would include any of the Hispanic persuasion like the Mexica Movement, NCLR, etc. Guess those are ok with you though, right?
Justice? That means following the law and punishing those who don’t.
Equality? I don’t know of any group of American citizens these days that aren’t treated with equality.
Change? Yeah, we know what kind of change you want. It isn’t what is best for this country or it’s citizens though.
Evelyn
What do you think Horace, that the Hispanics don’t have a plan.
There are many states that will never pass those racists laws.
They are known as sanctuary states. All the immigrants that left from the other states, are already living and working in those states.
Some wanted to go to Mexico to be with family for Christmas, in March they will start coming back.
There are millions of legal American families and churches who have already pledged to take care of the immigrant families who are harmed by these racist laws, until C I Reform is passed. LOL!
Evelyn
A while back I tried to be civil and even nice to you, but I learned real quick not to trust you. You saw my civility as a weakness and immediately attacked me.
I could go through each one of your lies and nuke them to bits, but I’m not going to spend my time un-spinning what you seem hell bent on spinning.
Just a word of caution, don’t spin too much you might get all wrapped up in those white sheets. LOL!
Horace
What Evelyn and her advocacy friends want is enforcement of law by exception, i.e. regardless of its equal applicability or general fairness, that law affects my friends, clan or tribe, ergo the law is wrong. Do the frequent visitors to the forum wish to live in a country where there is no such thing as equal treatment under the law for all. Would you rather prefer to live in a nation where the right to nullify law is ceded to ethnocentric factions because of their influence or growing political influence? Too many white folk robbing banks and going to jail.. can’t have that….got to grant amnesty to those poor white folk. Too many Hispanics violating immigration laws and getting deported…..can’t have that…. got to grant them amnesty. Too many black folk selling drugs and going to jail…can’t have that….time to grant amnesty. Folks, what kind of nation would this be if every ethnic or racial group was given a veto over justice? Equal treatment under the law is the very foundation of this nation, one that you’re advocating be done away with and replaced with rule by exception. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
Frank
Horace, your points were well stated but you and I both know that we are dealing with someone in particular that has an ethnocentric agenda and doesn’t think that our laws shoud apply to their ethnic kind.
There is nothing racist about those states taking action to rid themselves of illegal aliens. Illegal aliens have no right to be in this country, it is against the law. How is it racist to enforce our immigration laws or any other laws? The enforcement is against ALL illegal aliens not just one ethnic group. But because Latinos make up the majority of illegal aliens in this country, their ethnocentric supporters twist it into a racist issue against only Latinos. I hope we resolve this issue soon as it is dividing our nation.
Horace
No, Evelyn, Hispanics have no plan, just the advocation of the destruction of this countries basic principles. There will be few sanctuary states when the fight ends, and those that become them will become bankrupt and tired of day workers filling the streets and fighting one another for work. Those sanctuary states will tire of their health care bills being jacked up by deadbeat Hispanics who find it wonderful that they’re in a country that has “free health care.” They’ll tire of being singled out as a state for having the highest cost health care premiums as the health care providers raise their fees to make up the losses from the deadbeats who use their emergency rooms as primary care givers. The citizens will tire of rising property taxes that will be required for ESL and remedial resources for foreign kids, and to make up for the decline in per capita revenue caused by crowding of poor into their cities. They’ll tire of the the rising costs of automobile insurance as the cost of the uninsured motorist premiums rise because these so-called undocumented can’t afford basic coverage. Ultimately, the sanctuary states will say no more and enact their own laws consonant with federal statutes. You see, Evelyn, no matter what the village idiots plan, they can’t win in the end.
thinkingitover
i don’t care if the undocumented can’t get driver’s lisence! matter of fact i think that is the craziest and most illogical thing that i have heard concerning illegal immigration from those who sympathise with this very lost cause.
how are we (the people who don’t want the undocumented to have licenses) the bad ones here? we would never allow other people who have committed illegal acts to convenient themselves further with an illegal action in any other case.
latina lista. that was stupid.
Evelyn
Horace, even with all the regergitated lies you spew over and over and over and over, you must know by now no one believes you anymore, well no one that counts anyway. It only makes you look foolish and ignorant.
O my, how could you know….???….being the village idiot and all, why that’s why you have that job. That is what VILLAGE IDIOTS DO, they look FOOLISH AND IGNORANT ALL THE TIME!
Evelyn
Only a racist hypocrite would hide behind the “rule of law” to hurt other people.
Cherry picking an old immigration law that does not provide justice or equality, to uphold, is a perfect example of racism.
Only a hypocrite trying to promote a racist agenda would advocate such a law be followed. You are unpatriotic and should be deported from this country, or kept confined. Racism will no longer be tolerated! Got It!
Frank
Horace, those who claim to have been civil are lying thru their teeth. We both know it. Having an opinion or agreeing with a statistic that is contrary to their beliefs is considered reason to call someone vile names. Unfounded accusations fly all over the place, including cheap shots about “white sheets” all the time. Sad really that an adult has to behave that way. Debating should always be civil, even when we disagree. But Marisa allows it to go on. I have never called anyone a name unless they called me one first and I feel the need to defend myself.
What I find odd is being accused of being in the KKK, a hate group and yet those that do the accusing hang out in hate groups, just of a different color thats all. Hypocricy comes to mind.
Alessandra
I fail to see how the immigration laws voted upon in 1986 are in any way unjust. Every country has the right to determine the laws which best suit their own needs. Immigration laws are made for the benefit of the country, NOT the immigrant.
In 1986, a general amnesty was granted to 3,000,000 illegals with the understanding that it would be a one-time occurrance and that the immigration laws would from that point on be enforeced. As quoted by Ted Kennedy at the time: “Henceforth our borders will be secured and our immigration laws enforced. We will never again revisit the subject of amnesty.” This is what the American citizens were promised. Obviously, we were lied to. We are now holding our government to the promise which they made to us. Another amensty will only encourage even more illegal immigration and we will be back at the same place in 10 or 15 years that we are now. Then what?
Horace
The enforcement of law often has unfortunate circumstances for those who would rationalize its unfairness but disregard the consequences of not obeying it. In a word, they’re “hurt”. Illegal immigrants would not be injured by enforcement of the immigration laws if they obeyed them, for the law came first and the transgression followed. Just as the thief and counterfeiterer lament the unfairness of the laws that lead to their incarceration, the illegal immigrant laments the unfairness of the law which they disobey and are prosecuted under. Had there been no transgressions, there would have been no cause to debate the unfairness of the law, and no plaintiffs. Evelyn, you prove once again that you are purely driven by irrational, hysterical emotion.
Alessandra
Seven amnesties offered since 1986:
1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens
2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens
3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994
4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America
5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti
6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens
7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens
8. Nine current bills are vying to be Amnesty No. 8
For me to be on board with yet another amnesty (the 8th one in 20 years), I would have to be certain that several very important factors are considered and taken care of.
One would be that the borders would now truly be secured. No more lying like after the 1986 amnesty. And that would mean BOTH borders. In this day and age we can no longer afford to be complacent about border security.
Another thing which I would need to see is a way to track visa holders to make sure that they leave when their time here is up. Many illegals come in on visas and overstay them. This is what happened with the 9/11 terrorists.
There must be some sort of tamper proof ID which would need to be presented in order to secure employment. This would eliminate the “out” that employers now have that they did not know they were hiring illegals.
We also need to review our entire system to insure that our policies are suited to our 21st century workforce needs. Right now, most immigration is based upon nepotism, where immigrants who have relatives here are given priority over those who can actually provide a needed skill. This clogs up the pipeline and prevents those who do not have family here, but who could be net asset to this country, from gaining entry.
Another concern is how would we logistically handle another amnesty? Our immigration system is already so overwhelmed. What practical initiatives would be put in place to determine that the requirements for amnesty would actually be followed by the applicants? How will an already overtaxed system ascertain that those who do not qualify for an amnesty do not receive one? For instance, those with criminal backgrounds? Our system was so overwhelmed this past summer that they were backlogged on processing passport applications? How will we in a practical sense accurately and efficiently process some 20 million applications for amnesty and follow through that they adhere to the requirements expected of them?
These are the things that I would have to have clarified first, and I don’t see a lot of people giving a lot of thought to any of this. To me, after already having undergone seven amnesties since 1986, we cannot afford to botch this up yet again. We must proceed with extreme caution or we will only end up in the same place again.
Horace
Frank,
We could all make a pact to ignore her completely and she’ll effectively disappear as an issue. Nothing else you could do would annoy her more. People like Evelyn live for opportunity to abuse others. It’s a sickness. We only give her arguments respect if we attempt to counter them. Just pretend she doesn’t exist. It’s that simple.
Evelyn
If it walKKKs liKKKe the KKK, and it talKKKs liKKKe the KKK, it’s the KKK. Quit trying to portray something a decent person. I’m on to you and the others.
The racism isn’t going to be tolerated anymore.
Why do you always look to Horace or Eyes for approval. Aren’t you man enough to stand alone? Or it it that you know what you are doing is wrong! You NEED the others to give you courage to be brave. Ha! Ha! Ha!
Publius
Evelyn said: “Only a racist hypocrite would hide behind the “rule of law” to hurt other people.”
And those who advocate destroying rule of law are not hurting the entire nation of 300 million people by ceding the right of its nullification to advoctes of foreigners? Some might call that treason. Remember that adherence to rule of law is the only thing that stands between democracy and tyranny is rule of law. I’m appalled that you think so little of it.
Frank
Evelyn, like you high fiving it with the HB racists? What an freaking hypocrite you are! Sorry, I didn’t get your highnesses permission to agree with or high five it with Horace, EOT, etc. Most of the time I don’t even have a discussionw with them but I do it once and you’re all over it like the foaming at the mouth hypocrite that you are.
As far as our immigration laws go, I will abide by them and expect them to be enforced until or if they are changed. That is the way that adults behave. You however are like spoiled child who isn’t getting her way. Why do you hate this country and it’s citizens (especially the white ones) so much? Oh, that’s right we are here illegally according to you even though we were born here and have never set foot in Europe.
You are a disgusting piece of despicable, hypocrital piece of trash. How am I doing so far, Marisa? She started it as usual in her above insults of me again. Is this what you want for your blog, Marisa? Put an end to these personal insults started by Evelyn and you will have a respectable blog. If not, expect me to relatiate just as I have in this post. The choice is yours.
Evelyn
Publus
No one is advocating destroying the “rule of law.” The broken Immigration law that racists want to enforce was destroyed by Our Government.
The purpose of a law is to prevent injustice from reigning. The law must also be clear (understandable) and consistently enforced by those in power. The U.S. gov. destroyed this law by ignoring it for the past 22 yrs.
Trying to enforce this broken law now, at this late date lets injustice reign. Justice is not separating families. Justice is not uprooting families who have been allowed to work and provide for their families for the past 5, 8, or 13, years. According to our Constitution, the rights of these immigrants and their American citizen family members, are violated if we try to enforce these broken laws now.
Those who support the “rule of law” and advocate support for these broken immigration laws that let injustice reign are hypocrites because they do not support fixing these out dated laws so they can function without letting injustice reign. They have also stated they do not support the laws of our Constitution that guarantees justice and equality for immigrants. That is racism.
If one is going to support the “Rule of Law” one should support all laws that do what laws were intended to do. Which is “prevent injustice from reigning.”
Picking and choosing to support laws that further ones personal agenda even knowing these laws hurt innocent people while refusing to support laws that would help these same people is the most blatant form of racism and hypocrisy.
Evelyn
Alessandra
The Immigration laws of 22 years ago, that have been ignored by our government for the past 22 years are a problem now. These laws cannot be enforced now unless we trample the rights of American citizens who have have been allowed by our gov, to integrate unauthorized immigrants into their families without providing a way for these Immigrants to change their status of “illegal alien” to another status that would make them legal.
Our current laws state that anyone within our borders also have rights. Some of those rights are also trampled if we try to enforce current broken immigration laws without changing them.
This is where one can identify a racist person from a person who is against illegal immigration and looking for a solution.
Your second post impressed me greatly and I agree with you 99% the 1% are just some added protections.
I believe that most of what Comp.Immigration Reform offered is essential to stop illegal immigration. I also believe we should not starve families out of the U.S. if they have American family members or if they have been working and living here more than 5 years and have no criminal record.
To secure our borders we must also provide employers with legal immigrant workers so they will not have to sneak in to work. They would not be able to exploit these workers or American workers by paying lower wages. These immigrant workers would be let in only on an as needed bases.
If all immigrants were given a card, which they would show when applying for a job, that would leave out all workers wanting to come illegally. Knowing they would not have a job would deter them from coming
That leaves the immigrants who are here illegally because our government choose not to enforce the laws passed in 86. Once a process of legalization began 20 million immigrants will not qualify. Many will go back to their countries of origen.
It should not be a blanket amnesty. It should be kind of a copy of the 07 C.I.Reform. Only immigrants that have been here for 5 years and have been working should be allowed to stay. They should have no criminal record, priority can be given to those with American family members. They should pay back taxes and a $500. fine. The fees at USCIS will be about three thousand dollars. Another two thousand for Doctors fees and traveling expenses and Hotels at a point of entry when they do a touch back to enter legally and be put at the back of the line.
Bush has already told USCIS to process the current backlog of “resident alien” seekers, ‘criminal background checks,’ in 6 weeks instead of the usual wait of 6 mo.. USCIS has also rehired 75,000 already trained workers that had been let go about 2 years ago. In the end it is estimated that about 7-9 million immigrants will qualify to stay. Many of these might not complete the process, some might opt to return home if they find the process too demanding.
American passports are not processed at the same place where change of status applications are processed, so that would have nothing to do with legalizing immigrants. I am interested to know what you think. I kind of knew it would take dialogue between the ladies to come to an understanding.
Thank you in advance for your response.
Evelyn
Frank
Yes, our government has looked the other way for years and has not sufficiently enforced our immigration laws. Should we as citizens reward or government for that and not hold them accountable now? Or reward those who took advantage of it? I think not!
It sends a bad message when our government does not uphold it’s own laws and doesn’t honor the will of the people. We need to hold ALL guilty parties accountable and that includes the employers too.
Allesandra
I understand the argument that our government has not enforced our immigration laws. That is one of my main complaints. They did not do so before, so what makes us think they will do so now? There is no reason to believe that they will; none whatsoever. Even if they begin to do so, they will only do so until we are no longer paying attention and then it will be back to business as usual.
See, the out of control illegal immigration situation is only a symptom of a disease. The disease is globalism.
I don’t agree with demonizing illegal immigrants; however, I also do not agree with demonizing American citizens who are righteously angry that our government has not secured our borders which is one of their most important mandates: to provide for security of the U.S. Like I mentioned before, not only those who come across our borders, but those who take advantage of the chaos of our immigration system and overstay their visas.
While much of the proposed solutions to end this chaos (CIR) look good on paper, I have serious doubts that they will work in reality. For example: learn English? Who will follow up on the millions upon millions of applicants who will be required to do this? It is my understanding that applicants will only be required to prove that they have signed up for English instruction. It is easy to provide that documentation; it doesn’t mean anyone is actually learning English. There are other examples, but you get the point. There is so much opportunity for fraud here it’s ridiculous.
I know that the agency which processes passports is different than the one which would process applications for legalization. But, the priciple is the same: incompetence, inefficiency, and an overwhelmed system.
I just don’t see how in practical terms this would be accomplished. Again, I think as far as border security and immigration enforcement goes, once the American peoples’ attention was diverted into the latest crisis dictated by the media, the government would be up to their old tricks.
I do not place all of the blame on the illegal immigrants for this situation. It was the greedy employers who hired them, in some cases actively recruiting them, while our government looked the other way. However, any one who came into our country without authorization also knew that they were doing something they weren’t supposed to be doing and that the consequences of being apprehended would be deportation. They were taking a chance, rolling the dice so-to-speak. If I entered a foreign country to live and work without permission of that country, I would fully expect that if I were caught, I would be deported. That is common sense. The problem as I see it is that our government put special interests in front of the good of the American citizens.
Again, what happens if things go as they did before and we are sitting here 10 – 15 years from now with another 20 million illegals from all over the world in this country? Are we going to be called racists and Nazis because we insist on the rule of law again? How many times is this scenario to be repeated? I don’t see this going on in any other country.
Also, there are various agendas at play which have very little to do with compassion for those here illegally. Churches want a new membership, employers want a never ending supply of cheap labor to insure their “competitiveness” in a global market, leftists want to import a new proletariat to deconstruct our Capitalist society and usher in a new Democratic Socialist uptopia, and ethnocentric groups want to increase the number of their “tribe” to increase their political influence. Nothing is as it seems and none of this is really in the best interests of this country as I see it. If it were only a matter of compassion for those in the country illegally, a concensus could probably be reached. But there are competing interests which are preventing this. There are racists on both sides of this issue also.
Evelyn
In reading your first article I thought you had some excellent arguments. Now you totally lost me. I was under the impression we were seeking workable solutions to this problem.
The alternative would be to keep things the way they are. That is something I totally reject. This immigration problem cannot continue the way it is now. We need solutions and we need them fast.
The U.S. will become incapable of sustaining all the people coming here to work in a few years. And believe me they are coming, and they are being hired, even though employers know better now. I know a company that just hired 22 unauthorized immigrants to do phone sales work. 17 more are on there way. Others will start coming back as the weather gets better for construction and landscaping jobs.
I guess you changed your mind and think things should stand as they are. I lost you somewhere or you lost me.
I defiantly understand your distrust of our gov. But what are the alternatives. Leave things as they are now? I don’t think that is the answer. As a country we must come together to look for solutions.
As far as learning English goes, in order to become a citizen a “resident alien” must be proficient in English. The test is given in English. It is an oral test, so they cant fake it.
That is one of the reasons Immigrants have to wait five years after they become green card holders to become citizens.
The argument about doing this down the road in 15-20 years is a good one. The only reason immigrants come here is because they know they will have a job. If they don’t have a card to work they would not come. If the gov. opened up a way for immigrants to come legally (guest worker) they would come and go back, like they did before we botched things and didn’t allow a way for immigrants to come legally and go home. They came but didn’t leave because it got harder and harder to come back, so they opted to stay and bring their families or start families here.
The last paragraph of your post had a sentence (“ethnocentric groups want to increase the number of their ‘tribe'”)…??? The sentence seemed to be tinged with a bit if racism. Maby not. I would say to you these people are already here The majority are not leaving.
They are already increasing political influence on someones side. Look what is happening on the political seen now. There has been a clear rejection of racist candidates. The Republican party has been left reeling, with a candidate who many on the extreme right totally reject because of his soft stance on immigration.
If the status of the immigrants was adjusted to legal, they would not be “cheap Labor” because employers would not be able to exploit them by paying them ‘cheap wages.’
In the end it will not be the racest who will decide the fate of the immigration problem. It will be us, normal everyday people, those who have decided to vote for the most tolerant candidate on this issue, and sent the ‘no tolerance at all’ and the clearly racist candidates packing. We are the only ones who will decide, not the open borders or reconquista or the minutemen or KKK. It will be us.
Alessandra
Evelyn, many people believe that those who came here illegally, knowing full well that they were in violation of our immigration laws, should not be rewarded for that. It is wrong to assume that all of these people are “racists.” That is as bad as assuming that everyone who wants CIR for those who are ethnically like them are racist. There are really very few true racists. The reason why Mexicans are so often talked about in this debate is because they comprise 57% of the illegal population; 22% are from other Latin American countries. If we shared a border with China or Russia, we would be speaking of Chinese or Russians. In fact, China has its own problems with illegals from North Korea; they deport them on a regular basis and no one calls the Chinese racist for doing so. However, we are in the U.S. and so we will concern ourselves with this country.
I don’t think that many people are satisfied with things the way they are. What I am trying to say is that I do not think that our government really does not want to stop illegal immigration. The business community wants cheap labor and as you pointed out, once the illegals are made legal, they no longer fit the bill. That is what happened after 1986. The illegals were no longer cheap labor and the employers demanded a new supply of cheap labor. With globalization, companies will either outsource or “insource” to get their cheap labor. Whether it is illegal labor, or H1b visa holders who will work more cheaply than their American counterparts, it is all occurring for the same reason: globalism. That is why I do not trust the government to stop the flow. The bigger picture is much larger than the people who are here working illegally. In fact, if the globalist powers-that-be decide at some point that it is advantageous for them to flood the country with Chinese, African, or Eastern European workers (just as an example) who will work more cheaply than those coming from South of the border, they will.
So, it is not that I do not want to see a resolution, but that I feel that our government is being very disingenuous as to their true intentions. As well, I am also concerned about growing our population to unmanageable proportions, stressing our infrastructure, schools, social services, and natural resources. True, legalizing 12 million people would not be unmanageable; but, adding extended family members would be. I feel that family reunification should only include parents and minor children. Many Americans live thousands of miles away from parents and adult children, so I don’t see that as a problem.
The government would have to prove that they are serious about border security and enforcing immigration laws and in all honesty I just don’t know what it would take for them to rebuild my confidence in them. Like I said, I don’t think they really want to control the borders for economic reasons. And therein lies the rub: we cannot allow any kind of amnesty, CIR or whatever name you want to call it unless we know that there is not going to be another flood into the country. Remember, it is not only those coming from South of the border, but those coming in on visas overstaying. Another amnesty without a real commitment to secure the borders and track visa overstayers would be telling the entire world that we no longer have any borders. And a country without borders is no longer a country–not to mention a security disaster waiting to happen.
Alessandra
BTW, Evelyn, I also forgot to mention that there are several guest worker programs already in place. There is the H2A visa program for agricultural workers. This is a perfect example of employers just wanting cheap labor. Farmers can hire farm workers under the H2A visa program, but that requires that they pay a minimum wage (around $8 – $9/hr.) and provide housing. They did not want to do that and found it cheaper to hire illegals who would work for less and did not provide housing for them. Ag workers also did not stay on these jobs and moved on to better working conditions (construction, for example). So there is constant turnover.
Now, you do have a good point in that many people stay here because they are afraid to go back. Many of them really don’t want to become citizens, they just want to work for a specified time and then return home. Perhaps there could be some kind of guest worker program for these people as long as employers could prove that there are no Americans who would want the jobs first. But, again, who would play watchdog on the employers? They are supposed to do that with the H1b visa holders, but they find all kinds of ways around that and bring in cheap foreign workers who are displacing Americans. I feel as though there needs to be safeguards for American workers.
Publius
Alessandra,
I applaud your reasoned approach to this issue and I am in full concurrence with your position.
Evelyn
I am looking for people who want sensible solutions to this problem. I have always thought that women could work this issue out better then men. We are less violent and more humane. I guess it is because we are mothers.
I hear you, and your points are good ones. But I haven’t heard exactly what you think is a workable sensible solution.
Not the one extreme that advocate for walls all across the southern border and military personal at the southern border shooting anyone trying to cross. And keeping all immigrants out so the U.S. can be set back economically 200 years. I also think advocating to starve people out is beneath the greatest country on this earth.
Now the other side that wants to let every person come in and for all Europeans to go back to Europe is just as stupid. To advocate breaking this country into two countries is just as dumb. I think we should meet somewhere in the middle. I dont think keeping things the way they are now is a good solution either. Now, what say you?
Frank
I also agree with you Alesandra. The wall proposed is NOT going to be placed along the entire southern border. At most it is going to be around 700 miles and only in place where it is deemed necessary. I know of no plan to shoot border violaters, do you?
There is no plan to stop legal immigration in this country. We have over a million admitted each year. We can increase that number if so needed.
Mexico is starving it’s own citizens, not us. We cannot starve our own citizens to take care of foreigner’s needs. Immigration should be based on our needs and the ability to absorb them into our already stressed infrastructures and fair quotas from all over the world.
Alessandra
OK, I’ll tell you what I think.
First, we have to think of what we want to accompish: meet our labor needs while protecting the jobs and quality of life and opportunities for American citizens. I will be quite honest and say that I have no divided loyalties; my concerns are primarily for this country and its citizens. Other countries and their citizens are secondary. This is just how it is with me.
First we have to examine the factors which have lead us to where we are now and take steps so they do not occur again. As I said before, we are here due to a breakdown in the rule of law: employers who knowingly hired people in the country illegally and the government who promised after 1986 that they would enforce immigration laws and secure our borders and who did not and foreign nationals who took advantage of our lack of vigilance.
So, before anything can be actually done with those who are here illegally, we must put into place policies and procedures which will prevent this from occurring again. Now, everything I am going to suggest is predicated on the assumption that we can now trust the government (which I really don’t, but be that as it may…).
The key is to control the employment situation. People come for jobs; if we make it next to impossible for people to work here illegally, they will not come. So, again, a tamper-proof ID card. Nobody can be hired without it, no exceptions. Heavy fines for any employer who hires an illegal and the perp walk if they continue to defy the law. ENFORCE THIS!
A data base to track visa holders; this is really important as we have a lot of people coming in on visas and overstaying them. We must ensure that they leave when their time is up, not only for employment purposes but for our national security. I can’t get over the fact that the 9/11 hijackers came here legally and overstayed their visas and believe our government failed us in their primary responsibility: to provide for the common defense.
I have mixed feelings about the fence on the Southern border. I see the pros and cons. To me, making it impossible for people to work will stem the flow, but there are the drug cartels and criminals to consider. They are all coming as well as those who want to work and simply cutting of employment opportunities is not going to keep them out.
So, once we get control of the security situation and have efficient procedures in place to track foreigners inside our country, then we can turn our attention to those who are already here illegally inside our country.
There needs to be a triage of sorts: separate into groups people who are just working without causing trouble and the criminals. The criminals go–NO EXCEPTIONS. The workers, separate again into two groups: those who just want to work temporarily and go home and those who have developed ties to the country and wish to stay long term.
I don’t believe that we should be “forcing” citizenship on people who have no real desire to become citizens. American citizenship is too precious; too many people have shed blood defending this country, of all races and ethnicities. So, I think we could take a look at Canada’s guest worker program as an example. They allow people to come for a specified time period, then those people are returned home; only the workers are allowed to come, not families. There are laws to guard against exploitation of the guest workers. Again, they would have to be tracked to make sure they leave when their work permit expires.
For the ones who have developed roots here, allow some sort of permanent legalization. But, I honestly would stop short of full citizenship. That would be the penalty they have for coming illegally. However, I would allow them to have the same benefits as any other legal, permanent, non-citizen resident of this country.
The reason I say no citizenship is because we have to make it clear to people around the world that there is a real penalty for violating our sovereignty. Especially after we’ve already offered seven amnesties since 1986. Many people feel so strongly about this and that is why they want to return illegals to their home countries and have them apply legally–to send a message that we are a nation of laws and that we will no longer tolerate the flouting of those immigration laws. This is important because if we do not send this message, we will only be encouraging more people to try to come illegally in the hopes that another amnesty will be offered somewhere down the line.
Any kind of “family reunification” would be mom, dad, and minor children ONLY. Extended family would have to apply separately like anyone else.
In addition, it is imperative that we go to a system which takes our labor needs into consideration and keeps us competitive in the 21st century. Again, we need to look at some of what other developed countries are doing; such as, Australia. We need a point system and to get away from the “chain migration” which does not really address our labor needs. Immigration is for the benefit of our country, NOT the convenience of the prospective immigrants. That is how every country looks at it and we can be no different in that respect. So, end the nepotism.
As to the “newcomers.” They must understand that they are no longer living in the “old country.” Just like immigrants who came in years past, they must learn English, learn American history, and become a full part of the fabric of America. This does not mean they must give up their heritage or stop speaking their native languages; we are a richer nation because of the blending of all of our cultures. But they must realize they are no longer in “Kansas.” We did not hold a gun to their head to come here; they CHOSE to come here. Therefore, it should not be up to us to accommodate them, but for them to integrate into OUR society. If we do not do this, we will balkanize as a nation and become a bunch of squabbling, fighting tribes. You only have to look at Iraq, Turkey with the Turks and ethnic Kurds, the Balkans with the Serbs and Albanian Muslims, and Rwanda to see what happens when there is no national cohesion. We don’t want to go there. There must be an overarching set of values which unite us as a nation.
So, that’s about it. The devil is in the details, but this would be the general guideline I would follow. Like I said before, though, there are so many people and organizations with varying agendas which have nothing to do with the best interests of this country and its citizens and actually meeting our 21st century needs and that is a big road block to solving this serious problem.
This will probably be my last post for awhile.
Evelyn
I just knew women could come to an understanding on this immigration issue. I agree with you on most points, details could be worked out.
Much of what you suggest is already in place and working. Extended family members like grown siblings, aunts and uncles dont qualify for resident alien status now.
Also, if border patrol agents dont have to run around chasing nannies and dishwashers they will be free to focus on truly protecting our borders from drugs and the criminals that bring them in.
It has been a pleasure Alessandra, take care.
Evelyn
Horace
Mexico’s incompetent and corrupt government, a reason why its citizens feel compelled to abandon their country.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0226/p06s01-woam.html?page=1
This from the Christian Science Monitor:
—————————
Mexico’s oil output falls, Pemex needs cash infusion
Should the national oil
company allowing private investments? Critics worry about foreign control.
By Sara Miller Llana | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
from the February 26, 2008 edition
Coatzacoalcos, Mexico – Oil output in Mexico, the third-biggest supplier to the US, is declining, and the state company Petroleos Mexicanos (Pemex) lacks the technology to explore for new reserves. For many the answer seems simple: more capital.
But now that senators have begun debating ways to attain that capital – a top priority of President Felipe Calderón – resistance has mounted, particularly to the idea to allowing in private enterprise.
In no place is there more opposition than along the industrial corridor in this resource-rich, steamy stretch of Veracruz State. “This oil is from here, and it belongs to us,” says Francisco Lopez Martinez, who inspected oil barges at Pemex for 36 years before retiring this year.
The attitudes of residents in the neighborhood Oct. 24 in Coatzacoalcos, where lines of homes are almost entirely occupied by the engineers, mechanics, and computer repair personnel employed by Pemex’s plentiful plants here, underscore President Calderón’s biggest conundrum: Pemex is flagging, but the country is unlikely to do anything significant about it.
It matters to the US because Mexico is a top supplier at a time when global demand is high. It matters to Mexico because Pemex funds 40 percent of the country’s national budget. But as the 70th anniversary of nationalization of the industry nears (March 18), political infighting could lead to an impasse.
There are several ways to prepare Pemex to drill for the reserves of oil believed to lie deep in the Gulf of Mexico, say analysts across the political spectrum. Forming private strategic alliances is just one.
But talk of energy reform causes an almost knee-jerk reaction here, and the word “private” takes center stage, electrifying a population whose perception is that Mexico loses if foreigners are let in. On Sunday, Andrés Manuel López Obrador – Calderón’s leftist opponent who lost the 2006 presidential election by a whisker and dubs himself the “legitimate” president of Mexico – led thousands in protest to proposals to open Pemex to private investment.
“We are facing a big challenge in front of us. Mexico has been a big oil producer for the last 30 years, but the lifetime of the reservoir [Cantarell] is coming to an end,” says Ruben Camarillo, a member of Calderón’s center-right National Action Party (PAN) and secretary of the energy commission debating the reform in the senate. “At this point in time, PEMEX does not have the [needed] technology.”
Mexico’s crude production has fallen since 2004, a record year with 3.38 million barrels per day (b.p.d), according to the US Department of Energy. Production fell to 3.25 million in 2006, and the DOE predicts that it will decline by another 130,000 b.p.d in 2008 and 110,000 b.p.d in 2009. The decline parallels dramatically depleting reserves at Cantarell, which for 30 years was Mexico’s biggest source of oil. At the same time, the number of Mexico’s proven reserves fell from 49.3 billion barrels in 1986 to 12.4 billion last year.
Last year Mexico’s Energy Secretary, Georgina Kessel, said that crude production could fall by a third in less than 10 years if reform is not implemented.
Mexico’s oil output falls, Pemex needs cash infusion
Should the national oil company allowing private investments? Critics worry about foreign control.
from the February 26, 2008 edition
Pemex has been Mexico’s sacred cow since foreign companies were kicked out in 1938. Since then the Constitution has barred private ownership. Pemex is a source of national pride, but it’s been crippled by inadequate funding, corruption, and inefficiency.
High oil prices have helped mask the decline, says Amy Myers Jaffe, an energy analyst at the James A. Baker III Institute at Rice University in Houston. Pemex generated revenue of about $100 billion last year. But the situation, under the surface, is dire.
“If they don’t push through a major reform package, Mexico is going to become a net-oil importer. That is bottom line,” she says. “They need to be making investments, period.”
Declining output is not all Pemex has had to contend with recently. A devastating accident at an off-shore platform in October killed nearly two dozen workers. What’s more, the company has had to field rampant claims of corruption.
Most scientists agree that there are plentiful reserves in the Gulf of Mexico, but Mexico lacks the technology to head such exploration. Politicians say they are looking at ways to invite private companies into the industry without having to change the Constitution.
But many opposition leaders are suspicious, as are many Mexicans. “It’s an illusion to say private investment will make the company better. Foreigners will come and take away our jobs,” says Mr. Lopez Martinez.
Critics say they believe that supporters of allowing private alliances are manipulating the severity of the problem. Rogelio Ramirez de la O, founder of the consultancy Ecanal and economic adviser during Lopez Obrador’s presidential bid, says that there are ways to channel more money into Pemex so that it can make the needed investments. He says first Pemex should be given the money to increase its technology. In the case of other state companies, he says, their ability to explore in deep waters did not happen overnight.
Right now more than half of Pemex’s income is funneled back to the government, accounting for 40 percent of its national budget. Generating more investment could also be done by changing the nature of subsidies offered on product prices, says Ms. Jaffe, or restructuring the company to make it more efficient. All of the parties call for more transparency.
Polls consistently show that the far majority of Mexicans are against private investment in the energy sector. But many also misunderstand the issue. Mr. Camarillo says it’s their job to explain it. “It’s a very touchy subject.”
Evelyn
This article is just more proof of what I have been claiming all along. The U.S. gov. helps corrupt Euromexican politicians into leadership positions in Mexico.
These corrupt leaders then allow the U.S. access to Mexico’s natural resources, the U.S. gov. pays these corrupt leaders who pocket profits, the U.S. looks the other way and Mexicans are left more and more poor while the U.S. gets richer and richer.
Even though many say Calderon lost the election in Mexico. The U.S. gov, sent congratulations to Calderon before the votes had been counted.
If anyone thinks Calderon is going to keep the U.S. gov. out of the business of Pemex (Mexico’s oil) well I have a bridge I want to sell you. Very interisting article Horace. Thanks for printing it.
Frank
Another “general” statement not directed to anyone in particular. We “citizens” are totally fed up with a lot of our government’s policies. We as your everyday working Americans are not and will not pay for their sins. A lot of decision making in Washington is made without our approval or vote. The best we can do is to throw the bums out of office and take our country back. We are not going to roll over and take the heat or pay the consequences for our corrupt government’s mistakes. That applies to all of the problems our government has created in the past 20-30 years.
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