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Immigration Reform Legislation Costing Oklahoma Reduction in Gross State Product

LatinaLista — As an email was circulating this afternoon alerting Oklahoma educators that State Rep. Randy Terrill, known for authoring some of the most punitive anti-undocumented immigrant legislation in the nation, was going to try yet one more tactic to “sneak” his “English Only” bill into law:

Email text:

Representative Randy Terrill, author of last legislative session’s well-known anti-immigration HB1804, failed this session to gain support for a “Son of HB 1804,” in which he planned to impose additional sanctions and restrictions, including requiring schools to report the number of illegal immigrants enrolled to the state and strengthening tools for law enforcement.
When Terrill faced strong opposition from the business community to “Son of HB 1804,” he dropped it and decided to focus instead on making English the official language of Oklahoma.
He missed the deadline to submit his Official English bill, but on March 13, he openly acknowledged in an article by Oklahoma City NEWS 9 staffer, Amy Lester, that he plans to take a bill sent to the House from the Senate, completely gut it, and turn it into his English as Oklahoma’s official language bill. His strategy is also to use the legislative tactic of “suspending the rules” – especially effective when there are few members on the House floor – and adding his “Official English” as an amendment to a Senate bill (the content of the bill does not matter – he can add his amendment to any bill).

an interesting study estimating the long-term impact of Oklahoma’s punitive HB 1804 bill meant to drive out undocumented immigrants was released.
The findings create a less than OK state of affairs.

The study found that if the bill drives even 50,000 foreign-born workers out of the state, it would cause a loss of $1.3 billion a year. The state’s gross product in 2007 was estimated at nearly $144 billion.
The study was commissioned by the Oklahoma Bankers Association which has not taken a position one way or the other on the HB 1804.
In these tight economic times, state legislators are kicking themselves over passing HB 1804 before doing the analysis.
Now, it is a game of wait and see to see just how badly the state will suffer because they let themselves believe that undocumented immigrants’ presence in the state was a drain on their economy — when in reality, they could be the buffer factor in a recession.

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  • Horace
    March 25, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    Don’t worry, Marisa, it’ll just give you an opportunity to gloat, until Oklahoma brings in some legally procured guest workers. The solution has been there all the time, as guest worker programs already exist, only the potential users were too concerned that they’d have to pay all the costs attendent with such programs. They didn’t use them because they were have too good a time making big profits and hiring people who were living under miserable conditions. Under a guest worker program they won’t be able to pass off the health care and other social costs to the public. Harry Coates can just go pound sand.

  • Liquidmicro
    March 25, 2008 at 10:50 pm

    After reading the article, as I found NO study as linked, how much of what is said can be contributed to the assumed 50,000 having left the state vs. the high unemployment rates in many counties of Oklahoma. Is 1.3B a significant enough number when it is less than 1% of 144B?
    “Interesting, only $1.3 billion impact, that’s it. If you consider $144 billion and divide it by the state’s present population you get $40,200 per capita. If you then consider $1.3 billion and divide it by the 50,000 estimate you get only $26,000 per foreign-born worker. Next if you take 50,000/3,579,212 (The state’s est. pop.) and multiply by $144 billion you get $2 billion in projected gross state product declines, however the article cited that it would be $1.3 billion, longer term. In short the state’s gross state product would decline, however the gross state product per person would increase by about (144 billion-1.3 billion)/(3,579,212 – 50,000) or about $200 per person In short, these aren’t the jobs we should care much for.”
    From one of the posters in the comment section.
    Before any accusations are flung, a copy of the report what be helpful to know weather the costs of “Illegal Aliens” was included in the report, or what numbers they used to justify expenses vs income.

  • Frank
    March 26, 2008 at 7:43 am

    I had to laugh at the contradictory terms and words used. First the term “undocumented immigrants” is used. Next the term anti-immigration is used, then the term English Only is used and then Engish as the Official language is used. Two sets of terms that mean something entirely different but used together as if they were not. We all know that “undocumented” ( I have to cringe every time that word is used) is not the correct term for illegal aliens and no one is anti-immigrant.
    There is no “English Only” bill, it is Official English. One implies that someone cannot speak anything but English in our country and the other just means recognizing that English is the identifying language of our country and many states have made English their “official” language. Why the flip-flopping on the words and the dishonesty?
    As far as any economic impact on Oklahoma or any other state with the exiting of illegal aliens, short time small loss, long term huge gain when their benefits vs costs are fully realized. Doesn’t matter anyway, we are a nation of laws. Employers have no right to circumvent our labor laws and illegals don’t have the right to work here much less be in this country at all.

  • Evelyn
    March 26, 2008 at 2:59 pm

    This is ssooOOO funny! Do any of you racists realize how ridiculous and stupid you look trying to spin, lie, change, and manipulate your way out of having your nose rubbed in the truth. We all told you this was going to happen.
    It’s also happening in AZ. I hear they are back-peddling to bring the same workers back in (smirk) ‘legally’ by way of ‘guest worker program.’ ROTFLMAO How stupid can they be. Guest worker program status workers almost always go on to become permanent residents (green card holders) and then citizens. HA! HA!
    They should have just given them amnesty in the first place and be done with it. When Rep. Terrill came up with this fiasco I wrote a letter to him predicating exactly what happened. I have already written another one. I enclosed a copy of the first letter along with a paragraph explaining what an incompetent imbecile he is and how he allowed racism blind him to reality.

  • Evelyn
    March 26, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Washington Monthly
    By Kevin Drum
    I’ve always been uncomfortable with guest worker programs. Germany’s famous Gastarbeiter program of the 60s and 70s, for example, has produced a large population of Turks who do plenty of scut work but have little incentive to assimilate since they have no chance of becoming citizens. The result, as the Germans themselves have discovered, is alienation, distrust, and bitterness on all sides.
    In the Washington Post today, Tamar Jacoby writes that if you sit down and talk to them, most Americans agree:
    The Manhattan Institute and the National Immigration Forum recently conducted a series of focus groups testing two contrasting options: a guest worker program or a more traditional immigration plan based on the idea of citizenship. The results ran sharply counter to the expectations of policymakers in Washington. Democrats and Republicans alike overwhelmingly preferred the citizenship model for reasons of both principle and practicality.
    It might make sense initially, these voters said, to admit workers on a provisional basis. It might also make sense to create incentives for the more transient to go home at the end of their work stints. But if they worked hard, put down roots and invested in their communities, wouldn’t we want to encourage them to stay? Don’t we want immigrants to assimilate? Don’t we want to attract the kind of hard-working, committed folks who plan for the future and invest?
    If we truly decide that we want to keep immigration limited, then we should face down the low-wage business bloc of the Republican Party and get serious about keeping illegal immigrants out of the country in the first place. But if we want to allow more legal immigrants into the country — as a guest worker program tacitly acknowledges — then we should encourage them to be good citizens by offering them the chance to earn actual citizenship. Because they don’t do that, guest worker programs end up perpetuating both a culture of low-wage labor that’s ripe for exploitation and insular communities that have no incentive to think of themselves as Americans — because they aren’t. It’s the worst of both worlds.
    —Kevin Drum 12:03 PM

  • Horace
    March 26, 2008 at 9:28 pm

    “If we truly decide that we want to keep immigration limited, then we should face down the low-wage business bloc of the Republican Party and get serious about keeping illegal immigrants out of the country in the first place. But if we want to allow more legal immigrants into the country — as a guest worker program tacitly acknowledges — then we should encourage them to be good citizens by offering them the chance to earn actual citizenship.”
    Why should we limit our guest workers to Central/South Americans? Any guest worker program should be maximized to benefit the welfare of our country. It seems to me that guest workers from other parts of the world would more easily break away from their homeland culture and be forced to assimilate and learn English. As it is, Mexican attachment to Mexico only invites the formation of ghettos and colonialism and creeping Hispanic cultural hegemony. Moreover, giving preference to those south of our borders is to guarantee a loss of national diversity and is also unfair to other nationals who wish to experience the American Dream.

  • Liquidmicro
    March 26, 2008 at 10:49 pm

    “If we truly decide that we want to keep immigration limited, then we should face down the low-wage business bloc of the Republican Party and get serious about keeping illegal immigrants out of the country in the first place.”
    What is your position on this above Evelyn? Agree or Disagree?
    “But if we want to allow more legal immigrants into the country — as a guest worker program tacitly acknowledges — then we should encourage them to be good citizens by offering them the chance to earn actual citizenship. Because they don’t do that, guest worker programs end up perpetuating both a culture of low-wage labor that’s ripe for exploitation and insular communities that have no incentive to think of themselves as Americans — because they aren’t. It’s the worst of both worlds.”
    Low-wage labor and exploitation can be resolved by putting more teeth in current existing laws aimed at employers, and then enforcing such laws. Guest workers do have the opportunity to change status, meaning, they can while here on H-2A status, apply for any other visa and possibly obtain a green card from it. Thus those truly wishing to become American Citizens already have that chance, even if here on the guest worker status. Me thinks this Kevin Drum needs to do better research before asserting his ignorance.
    Now, again, less than 70,000 H-2A visas were issued last year (guest worker program), should not the farmers then be blamed for not using the current program instead of yelling “RACIST” at everything showing your “IGNORANCE” and lack of “COMPREHENSION” of the actual “FACTS” of the statements made by your postings?

  • Evelyn
    March 27, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    The only dog I have in this fight is advocating for the immigrants that are already here.
    Those who have been here for more than 5 years that have American born children or spouses. Those who have no criminal record. Those who have been working.
    It doesent matter if they have been paying taxes, because many employers dont give them W2s so the employers wont have to pay taxes. That is not the immigrants fault.
    Many immigrants rely on the employers to do the right thing and follow the law, but many dont.
    The raids should stop. Forcing American children to self-deport because they cannot care for themselves is sad. Calling immigrants from Europe immigrants and calling Hispanic immigrants by their status of ‘illegal alien’ dehumanizing is not what America stands for.
    It is embarrassing for America to project herself to be racist. It is also harmful. That is why America is so hated by so many countries.

  • Liquidmicro
    March 27, 2008 at 6:34 pm

    Then your basically advocating for approximately 50% of the “Illegal Aliens”, as having been here for more than 5 years. While the other 50% are to be, repatriated?
    Having no criminal record is a very large brush to paint with, since a large majority of them just have not been caught yet, working with false documents and ID’s is a crime too.
    Immigrants not paying taxes, all the more reason to go after employers (E-Verify), no?
    Many people also rely on the “Illegal Alien” to follow the law and do the right thing, but almost none of them do, meaning to apply for the proper visa or go back to their countries of origin..
    Raids do not force American Children to self deport as many can be and are dual citizens justified by parents country of origin. i.e. children born in the USA to parents holding Mexican Nationalization, are also Mexican Nationals due to Mexico’s recognition, thus they are actually dual citizens.
    Immigrants from Europe or Immigrants from Mexico are just that, Immigrants, which means that they came here through the proper channels and have followed our laws. “Illegal Aliens” from Europe or Mexico, are just that, “Illegal/Undocumented/Unlawful/Banned/Illegitimate/Dishonost” or what ever it is you wish to consider their status.
    Your still using trigger words to promote hate. Nobody has dehumanized the “Illegal Aliens” by wanting them to abide by all laws, to include that if they are here “Illegally” that they be repatriated. You may consider it extremely harsh/cruel to detain some “Illegal Aliens” in detention centers, however our laws do permit it for up to 364 days as long as they are not placed on hard labor. To want to change the law is one thing but to label those of us who do not agree with your opinion is also unjust.
    Civil debate is possible, providing trigger words (subliminal wording) of hate are not used (dehumanizing).
    Most countries consider America not to be Racist but hold resentment toward us due to our Government having its hands in every countries business. They also think of us as vane, because they think that we think that we are the best at everything. There are many other words that could be used, but racist usually isn’t one of them.

  • Frank
    March 27, 2008 at 10:30 pm

    So our country is hated because of our immigration policies? LOL! Yeah, I can just see all those radical Islamics shouting in unison “we must kill the infidels, their immigration policies are unfair”!

  • Evelyn
    March 28, 2008 at 2:08 am


  • Liquidmicro
    March 28, 2008 at 9:17 am

    No rebuttal’s, just =spin. One could expect no less from you, I guess. I expressed my opinions and gave you some facts to look up, and you refuse to do so. I guess so much for your civility in arguments.
    Evelyn=only her point of view

  • Alex
    March 28, 2008 at 6:57 pm

    It is dehumanazing, unchristian, evil to punish human beings, god’s creatures, for just working to feed their families and try to provide what is best of them. This reminds me of Victor Hugo’s “Les Miserables’ that criminalized and jailed people for stealing a loaf of bread. That is what Liquid, Frank, EOT and the others blinded by their hate are, miserables. One day you will meet God directly to be judged, and your Rule Of Law and constitutionality argument won’t help you aout of being thrown to hell, punishment to those who did not care for their neighbors, specially those in need. Let’s hope, amd pray, that you change your hardened hearts for good.

  • Horace
    March 28, 2008 at 11:28 pm

    Well, Alex, then I suggest that the world is full of such people, including Mexico, which is full of billionaires who care little for their people. Do us a favor. Rather than put all of the burdens of the world on the shoulders of Americans, go march in Mexico and force those evil plutocrats to take spread the wealth around. If Mexicans won’t lift a finger to help themselves, then who should? I find it incredible that Americans are so gullible that they’ll listen to Calderon and Fox and actually believe that illegal aliens are victims of U.S. misbehavior rather than their own governments.
    Did you know that approximately half of all taxes go uncollected in Mexico due to corruption? This is money earned by wealthy and greedy people who would rather secrete this money in off-shore accounts than help their own people. Mexico is a corrupt country, where a vast canyon exists between the wealthy and poor. It’s a country of incompetent government, where vast oil resources go untapped due to the government’s mismanagment. The U.S. is a welfare state, where all those people you want to adopt will eventually wind up with subsidized health care and social benefits, all at the expense of middle class America. After all, how can 20 million people living below the poverty level possilbly avoid tapping into the treasury for part of their support? We completely refund all such persons their income taxes and give them Earned Income Tax Credits to boot, not to mention free health care. The Mexicans who come here are the cast-off burdens of a corrupt state which sees the U.S. as a dumping ground to avoid responsibility. This is why many of us object to any sort of amnesty. We see through this and refuse to be taken advantage of. And we will not be brow beaten or coerced by pathetic accusations of hate, bigotry or racism by the gullible fools that have fallen into Mexico’s trap.

  • Liquidmicro
    March 28, 2008 at 11:49 pm

    Oh, I don’t know Alex, something about the 10 Commandments comes to mind. Specifically Exodus 20:15 & 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:19 & 5:21.
    How about the new covenant laws: Ephesians 4:28, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 6:19; 25-26, Romans 7:7-8
    Since you still choose to point fingers and call for damnation to the few of us, I hope you truly don’t believe what you espouse towards us, thats just un-Christian of you.

  • Evelyn
    March 29, 2008 at 1:09 am

    liquid=???facts??? Dont you mean Regurgitation, Regurgitation, Regurgitation.

  • Frank
    March 29, 2008 at 10:16 am

    Same regurgitation from the pro-illegal side to. Nothing different! For example,racists, racists, racists, racists, racists,etc.

  • Liquidmicro
    March 29, 2008 at 10:24 am

    Regurgitation? I challenge you to prove anything in my above post of March 27, as other than fact. One could say; Evelyn = fallacy.

  • Frank
    March 29, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    Alex, you and yours have such an inflated image of yourselves as “champions of the downtrodden.” What really infuriates me is that those like you damns to hell American citizens who are trying to protect their own nation and their own poor and working class, while absolving the governments and elites of the sending nation!
    So, let me get this straight: we are to take in the entire world’s poor because they “need to feed their families,” but the elites and wealthy of those sending countries and their corrupt governments just get to continue on with the status quo? And WE, the middle and working class Americans who are struggling to keep our heads above water, are the ones who are going to HELL??? Give me a break, Alex!
    What’s the matter? Does advocating for the citizens of foreign nations make you feel morally superior? Does compassion for the poor and working class of your own nation not do it for you?
    Spare us all of the religious superiority. Why don’t you move to the Latin American country of your choice and work with the people in those nations to improve their circumstances THERE instead of looking down your nose from your ivory tower and condemning to hell American citizens who are just trying to maintain a shred of our own opportunities and sovereignty.
    Seriously, if we follow your philosophy to its logical conclusion, we would have to allow in any poor person in the world who wants to come here! This is insanity! So, we give amnesty to another 20+million illegals and in the process allow another 50+ million in. What about the next 20 million and the next 50 million? This is NOT THE ANSWER!!
    There is nothing “dehumanizing” about repatriating people to their countries! Nobody is demanding that they be “jailed” for stealing a loaf of bread! Stop with the histrionics! And there is nothing “hateful” about putting the well-being of citizens and legal residents of one’s own country before that of another! I dare say that Mexico and other countries do not consider the well-being of American citizens before their own. For that matter, the governments and elites of those countries don’t even consider the best interests of their own poor citizens. They just want rid of them so they can continue with the status quo.
    You and your moral superiority are fast becoming the most annoying to me. Declaring someone damned to hell for being concerned about their own childrens’ futures is not exactly a Christian act in my book either.

  • Horace
    March 30, 2008 at 9:24 am

    Well said, Frank.

  • Alex
    March 30, 2008 at 4:01 pm

    I agree partially with regarding to secure our borders. That what was suppose to happen in the 80’s amnesty. It dis not happen, and it is just not the government’s fault. It is also our fault for allowing and again, benefiting for their reliable and cheap work, service and loving care for our children when we needed a nanny. We let them be part of our ocieties, they are an important part of most industries, and a vital part of our economic system. I do not remember complains from people like you demanding them thrown out. Maybe the only ones were KKK, neo-nazis or these type of racist groups that just beat them, and in some cases, killed them. There were so many jobs and opportunities that we just looked the other way. Now, here is the problem, and this is what sensible, compassionate people are advocating. Most of them have been here 20 – 30 years, have established roots, formed a family, their children are more identified with the U.S. lifestyle. Sending them back where they came from, most of them at advanced age, would not make it. Even here, age is a factor finding a job, it is worst on their countries of origin. Polls indicate that a majority will support some kind of legalization path. Not an amnesty, that would mean forgiving completely their violation as the 80’s one. They will have to pay fines, pay back taxes, learn English, go to the back of the line, etc. That is not amnesty. I, and, many more, as polls suggest, who do not agree with the hateful groups and their paid bloggers, like you, would agree with legislation letting undocumented immigrants, with no real criminal records, stay and be submitted to this kind of legalization path. We will have secure borders, everyone agrees with that, but the ones already here for more than 5, 10 years deserve the opportunity to stay and be part of our nation as contributing citizens without the fear of being detained while on way to work, school or church. If we all work to keep our borders secured and enforce them rigidly, it would not encourage future undocumented immigrants. But, again, they are already here and should be allowed to stay, That is the right way, specially in God’s eyes.

  • Frank
    March 31, 2008 at 8:27 am

    No, it is not the U.S. citizen’s fault that our borders didn’t get secured after the 1986 amnesty. We have no control over such matters and we never knew the magnitude of the number of illegal aliens crossing our borders till it reached critical mass. Well now we know and are taking action. Better late than never.
    Your everyday working American did not and does not benefit from illegal alien labor. Those who hire nanny’s are the wealthy not middle or lower class Amerians and those who do are just as corrupt as the businesses who hire them. It is only the employers who do. We have had to subsidize their health, education and welfare, not the employers. Our taxes have skyrocketed and it is partly due to illegal immigration.
    We wil not stand by and allow our government or the employers to get away with this anymore. We need the Save Act passed and our borders secured.
    Who are you to say that God would want them to stay? This about laws not the bible.

  • Alex
    March 31, 2008 at 4:57 pm

    Do not tell me that they did not know the magnitude of undocumented immigrants coming here. They were in every restaurant, construction site, factories, our lawns. Everybody knew that those jobs were 75 percent ocuupied by them. It was obvious. But, again, we didi not care because there were plenty of jobs, and we did not care them doing the nasty ones. After September 11, the racist groups that pay to to post here, under different names, found the opportunity to play into citizens’ patrioterism and, specially fear, that worked so well for “W”, to instigate their hate in our country. Most of us understand that is more beneficial for them to stay, and start contributing legally to our economy and society.

  • Alex
    March 31, 2008 at 5:09 pm

    Tell God, when you die and face him, that is not the bible that matter but human imperfect laws that do. I do not think you will have the spiritual papers to make it to heaven. Let’s hope you change.

  • Frank
    March 31, 2008 at 8:14 pm

    You understand nothing! All you have is your un-American ethnocentric views and your lame interpretations of the bible. Tell God at the Pearly Gates when you die how you chose law breakers over your fellow American citizens welfare just because they were ethnically like you. He will be sending you to a much warmer place for being a racist.

  • Liquidmicro
    March 31, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    Alex says:
    “It is dehumanazing, unchristian, evil to punish human beings, god’s creatures, for just working to feed their families and try to provide what is best of them.”
    I’m going to give you a hypothetical Alex, OK. Keep in mind, I’m doing this to better feed and help my family because I am poor and can not afford to put food on the table.
    I just went and robbed your house because I need money to buy food to feed my family, I took all of your electronics because I don’t have any in my cardboard box house, I took all your jewelry so that I could pawn it for cash to buy a car, I took your identity because I found your SS card, I took your job and you were fired because I work cheaper then you do and harder, etc….
    Now, I do not expect to be punished because, according to you, it is evil to punish human beings. I do not expect to go to jail, because that would be separating me from my family who I did this for. I do not expect to be labeled as a thief because that is dehumanizing.
    Now how would that feel to you, what should be done to me?

  • Marisa Treviño
    March 31, 2008 at 10:04 pm

    Frank, you’re better than this. Since when does God recognize country borders? I’ve always been taught that He sees us all equally as His children, without regard of country 🙂

  • Liquidmicro
    March 31, 2008 at 11:03 pm

    Trick question Marisa. What is taught:
    “The New Testament makes it clear that believers are to obey Governmental authority (Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17), but not when the authority requires believers to sin.”
    There are other references to laws, in both Old and New Testaments. The 10 Commandments comes to mind.
    Churches teach the above in accordance to laws referenced in the Bible:
    Understanding Catholic
    Social Teaching as it
    Relates to Migration
    All persons have the right to find in their own countries the economic,
    political, and social opportunities to live in dignity and achieve a full
    life through the use of their God-given gifts. In this context, work that
    provides a just, living wage is a basic human need.
    (Note “in their own countries/homelands”)
    The Church recognizes that all the goods of the earth belong to all people. When persons cannot find employment in their country of origin to support themselves and their families, they have a right to find work elsewhere in order to survive. Sovereign nations should provide ways to accommodate this right.
    (Note “Sovereign nations should provide ways to accommodate this right”, welcome to the USA Visa programs, will get to that below. Now, a job is not guaranteed to all of us in the USA, unemployment comes to mind, so then what gives these people the right to come here and obtain jobs that are taken away from our citizens? Is it not a sin then to take food from another, with the goal of feeding yourself, and denying the person of whom you took it from for your own survival? (stealing comes to mind here))
    The Church recognizes the right of sovereign nations to control their
    territories but rejects such control when it is exerted merely for the
    purpose of acquiring additional wealth. More powerful economic
    nations, which have the ability to protect and feed their residents, have a stronger obligation to accommodate migration flows.
    (Note “the USA already takes in more immigrants per year than the rest of the nations of the world, when is it enough then? In 2006, 1,266,264 foreign nationals obtained lawful permanent resident (LPR) status according to the Department of Homeland Security’s Yearbook of Immigration Statistics 2006. The total number represents a 12.8 percent increase from 2005 (1,122,373), and a 50.6 percent increase from 2000 (841,002).
    Of the nearly 1.3 million new LPRs, 45.8 percent were an immediate relative of a US citizen, 17.5 percent came through a family-sponsored preference, and 12.6 percent through an employment-based preference. Another 17.1 percent adjusted from a refugee or asylee status, and 3.5 percent were diversity-lottery winners.
    Disaggregated by country of birth, 13.7 percent came from Mexico. The top five countries of birth — Mexico, China, the Philippines, India, and Cuba — accounted for 35.0 percent of all persons who received LPR status in 2006.
    Nationals of the next five countries — Colombia, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Vietnam, and Jamaica — made up another 13.3 percent of all LPRs, so that the top-10 countries of birth made up almost 50 percent of the total.Temporary workers and trainees, including H-1B “specialty occupation” workers, registered nurses, temporary agricultural workers, North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) professional workers, treaty traders, and intracompany transferees, among others, accounted for 1,709,953 arrivals (5.1 percent of total admissions); this figure includes spouses and children of temporary workers.
    Students who came to study at an academic or vocational institute, together with their family members, made up 3.5 percent (1,168,020) of total admissions. etc, etc, etc.
    Is this yet enough per year, or should we allow the whole of the world here?)
    Those who flee wars and persecution should be protected by the global
    community. This requires, at a minimum, that migrants have a right to
    claim refugee status without incarceration and to have their claims fully
    considered by a competent authority.
    (Note “Everybody agrees with this I believe”)
    Regardless of their legal status, migrants, like all persons, possess
    inherent human dignity that should be respected. Often they are subject
    to punitive laws and harsh treatment from enforcement officers from both receiving and transit countries. Government policies that respect
    the basic human rights of the undocumented are necessary.
    (Note “Please show us where basic human rights have been denied”)
    However the bible talks of “nations” and “separate nations” throughout and/or the going to different locations to spread the word of God. Gods words are recognized as that of the 10 Commandments, when god spoke to Moses. The Bible is a compilation of stories/books from different authors and their accounts.

  • Horace
    April 6, 2008 at 8:49 am

    Alex said: “Do not tell me that they did not know the magnitude of undocumented immigrants coming here. They were in every restaurant, construction site, factories, our lawns. Everybody knew that those jobs were 75 percent ocuupied by them. It was obvious.”
    Isn’t this the racial profiling advocacy groups object to? Should I presume every Hispanic employed at a restaurant or mowing a lawn is an illegal alien? Obvious? Ok, if it’s so obvious then all our ICE and police have to do is arrest these obviously illegal workers and deport them, no questions asked. I suggest that, until their numbers approached a threshold, most Americans assumed that these people were legal immigrants. You advoacy types like to work this both ways, and use whichever approach works for you. This is called duplicity.

  • Publius
    April 6, 2008 at 3:51 pm

    Hold on there, Horace, don’t be so hard on Alex. Maybe Alex has some special instinct beyond our ken that permits her to sniff out undocumented immigrants. I’m sure she could make a fortune sniffing out these people for ICE, after all, all she’d have to do is look around her and point.

  • Alex
    April 6, 2008 at 6:50 pm

    God will not punish you if you steal because you are hungry. Your examples are extreme Liquid. We are talking about people who just want to be given the chance to work and provide for their families. Based on your example, if food is stolen from my home, i would assume the person who did it was hungry and I would have more food ready for him to take, if he returns. That is what the undocumented are doing now, as per your hypothetical, just stealing food. Very, very few might be stealing your commodities, jewelry or electronics.

  • Liquidmicro
    April 6, 2008 at 10:35 pm

    You obviously don’t live in California, Alex, as your hypothetical is very nieve. Your few that are coming here just to feed there families, are a very minute minority of the 12M+. Even still they have to work to provide, and in order to work they must purchase or assume an identity, thus making them criminals. What of those that bough houses during the boom, to now have their homes foreclosed on, then they strip everything from the house when they leave, wires from the walls, copper wires and tubes from A/C units, sinks, toilets, light fixtures, anything and everything they can take. The financed Chevy Suburbans, Hummers, Escalades, quit making payments and drove back to Mexico. Seems they stole more than just food, now doesn’t it?

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