LatinaLista — In the 36 hours since Benazir Bhutto was assassinated, there have been three different explanations as to how she died. The latest is that her head hit the sunroof where she had been standing waving to her supporters when she was shot.
A former US Intelligence worker says that the stories are changing because Bhutto’s enemies want to deny her a martyr’s death.
Benazir Bhutto
They are too late.
The following commentary that Bhutto delivered to CNN, provides insight as to why the government refuses to say definitively how she died and why such political chaos exists in a country that had such hope within its grasp and now must grapple with uncontrolled hate and vengeance that it makes it a country as unstable as its neighbors.
Bhutto’s death affects us all — women, social activists, political watchdogs — because she exemplified that to stand up for what is unpopular is never easy. In fact, it’s downright scary, but we continue because it’s the right thing to do.
Whether it’s speaking up for undocumented immigrants, the poor and the disenfranchised, there is always a group who will find the most vulnerable offensive to their way of living.
In honor of a brave social justice activist, Latina Lista reprints the following commentary written by Benazir Bhutto.
In November, CNN.com invited Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto to reflect on the tumultuous events following her return to Pakistan this fall. In this commentary, the former prime minister reflected on a failed assassination attempt on her life at that time and vowed to keep pushing for the restoration of democracy. President Pervez Musharraf ended a 42-day state of emergency on December 15. He had condemned the attack against Bhutto. CNN.com also invited Musharraf to submit a piece giving his perspective. He has not yet responded.
KARACHI, Pakistan (CNN) —
I have long claimed that the rise of extremism and militancy in Pakistan could not happen without support from elements within the current administration. My return to my country poses a threat to the forces of extremism that have thrived under a dictatorship. They want to stop the restoration of democracy at any price. They have exploited a poor, desperate, and powerless people and allowed extremists the right environment in which to flourish.
The ruling party is an artificial, political party created in the headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence (Pakistan’s equivalent of the CIA) during the General Elections of 2002. Its core support comes from the political partners of the military dictator of the ’80s, General Zia al-Haq, who empowered the most radical elements within the Afghan Mujahedeen who went on to morph into al-Qaeda, Taliban and the Pakistani militants of today.
This party has called for a banning of outdoor rallies, demonstrations and caravans. They would thus suspend all activity that demonstrates to the people of Pakistan and to the people of the world which parties enjoy mass support amongst the people.
On my return to Pakistan last month, throngs of people turned out to welcome me back home. The demand to ban grassroots political activity is a suspicious prelude to what could be an overt attempt to rig the upcoming elections. All people who believe in the process of democracy should reject this attempt to undermine public participation in the campaign and set the table for what I believe would simply be a fraudulent election.
It has now been more than two weeks since the horrific assassination attempt against me and the police have still not filed my complaint. They filed their own report without taking statements from eyewitnesses on the truck targeted for the terrorist attack which resulted in the death of more than 158 of my supporters and security guards.
Soon thereafter, I was asked by authorities not to travel in cars with tinted windows — which protected me from identification by terrorists — or travel with privately armed guards.
I began to feel the net was being tightened around me when police security outside my home in Karachi was reduced, even as I was told that other assassination plots were in the offing.
While the authorities speculated on whether a suicide bomber had been involved or two suicide bombers or perhaps a hand grenade or perhaps a car bomb, I reflected on my plight.
I decided not to be holed up in my home, a virtual prisoner. I went to my ancestral village of Larkana to pray at my father’s grave. Everywhere, the people rallied around me in a frenzy of joy. I feel humbled by their love and trust.
Although it remains difficult to know for certain, I doubt that a suicide bomber was involved in the attack on me. I suspect, after talking to some of the injured, that the terrorists used a small child as a ploy to get to me. They were trying to hoist the child — dressed in the colors of my party’s flag — onto my truck.
Failing to do so, they dropped the child near my vehicle. Some witnesses said the child had been rigged as a human bomb. I can’t be sure. What followed was a massive explosion, killing scores immediately, tearing many bodies in half and sending blood, gore and flames up into the vehicle.
In less than a minute a second bomb — reports later suggested a car bomb — went off.
As I have reflected on the past two weeks, there are some things I wonder about:
• What was the car doing there?
• Why had the street lights been turned off?
• Was that intended to prevent my security from clearly seeing any approaching dangers?
• Is there any truth to the report that a high government official ordered the lights turned off “to prevent her getting so much television coverage”?
• Why would the leadership of the ruling party of Pakistan make a claim that my own party had committed the attack to gain sympathy?
• Why would the investigation be initially given to a police officer who was present when my husband was nearly tortured to death in 1999?
And, then, there is to me the most worrying: the adamant rejection by Islamabad of any assistance from the state-of-the art forensic teams of the FBI and Scotland Yard. There are precedents in Pakistan for such international assistance. Such teams were called in to investigate the mysterious and sudden death of Army Chief General Asif Nawaz and the Egyptian Embassy bombing in the ’90s.
I had called in international experts when my brother Murtaza was killed in what I believed was a conspiracy to destabilize my government in 1996.
We can only wonder — if there is nothing to hide — why international investigators from the FBI and Scotland Yard are being prevented from assisting a Pakistan-led investigation?
The sham investigation of the October 19 massacre and the attempt by the ruling party to politically capitalize on this catastrophe are discomforting, but do not suggest any direct involvement by General Pervez Musharraf.
Until recently, he had made both public and private commitments to confidence building gestures that would move Pakistan forward in the transition to democracy. But at a time when he should be demonstrating to our country and the world his seriousness in allowing free, fair and transparent elections, he has declared martial law. This can only be seen as a step to entrench his dictatorship.
We must have elections under an independent caretaker government, and neutral administrative officials who have the confidence of all major political parties in the country. And these elections should be under the supervision of an autonomous and competent Election Commission.
It is time that Islamabad facilitates the operation of a rigorous election monitoring mechanism — both domestic and international — that can guarantee the sanctity of the ballot and allows election experts to conduct exit polls to insure that the counting reflects the voting.
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It is time, in other words, for reconciliation to truly begin that will allow for the mobilization of the moderate majority of my nation and the marginalization of militants, fanatics and extremists.
But for that to happen, General Musharraf will need to revive the constitution by lifting martial law.
Comment(25)
Evelyn
For women, she was an Inspiration, and for all mankind an example to follow……
It is my hope that Benazir Bhutto’s loved ones, and those who followed her will one day find peace.
“It is time for reconciliation to truly began that will allow for the mobilization of the moderate majority of my nation, and the marginalization of militants, fanatics, and extremists”.
These words spoken by Benazar in the last days of her life ring true for those in the U.S. who seek dignified solutions to our unenforceable immigration policies.
My country also has an ever growing problem with racists, and extremists who have turned the Undocumented Immigration problem into an Immigrant, and Hispanic demonizing festival.
yave begnet
I’ll grant that Bhutto’s stint as leader of Pakistan was symbolically important, both regionally and globally. I remember watching Channel One News in junior high and seeing Bhutto up there ruling a country and thinking “wow, how come a woman leader is so unthinkable here and so already happening in the Middle East?” But the dynamics of her getting elected there undoubtedly had a lot more to do with dynastic politics and an entrenched elite ruling class than with her gender.
And I’m not sure Bhutto’s failings should be so easily glossed over. With the disclaimer that neither I nor Matt Yglesias really know much about Pakistan, that hasn’t stopped anyone else from weighing in on this tragedy, so I won’t let it stop me from quoting Yglesias now:
I think it’s worth being clear about something — from the perspective of someone who’s never spoken to Benazir Bhutto or any members of her inner circle, it seems like she was a really bad person and a terrible political leader. The main thing she did when in office was steal. A lot. Of money. From her extremely poor country. You have, basically, tens of millions of incredibly poor people in Pakistan. You have shitty infrastructure. You have a shitty school system. And you’re the Prime Minister. What do you do about it? You steal an incredible sum of money, while helping your associates likewise steal an incredible sum of money.
I’m not aware of anything changing for the better in Pakistan when she was running things. And as far as her credentials as a democratic opposition leader, it’s worth noting that she’s not the democratically elected leader who was deposed in Musharraf’s coup — her rival Nawaz Sharif was. Her plan was to use her strong base of support in the US to cajole Musharraf into some kind of power-sharing agreement with her. And if she’d gotten a bigger share of the power, she would have used it to steal more money.
Here’s a more fact-based inquiry into the corruption allegations from several years back.
Evelyn
Don’t ponder what your response to the daily attack by the racists on this forum would be. Join this forum and express it. In English or Spanish it doesn’t matter.
The racist are able to spew their lies and spread their propaganda, because we allow it. Just like we took to the streets and marched to repel that racists law, we must take to cyberspace to repel these horrendous racists attacks.
Racism has always been alive and well in the U.S., but paled in comparison to what Immigrants especially Hispanic endure today, in this climate of poisonous rhetoric.
The most violent and dangerous display of racism, has been allowed to occur at the southern border.
A group of geriatric vigilante wannabe gunslingers are allowed to terrorize anyone they believe to be undocumented.
In one 6 mo. period at least 30 incidents of vigilante violance have been reported. Several deaths have also occurred, and evidence points to these domestic terrorists.
The same law enforcement agencies who allow these vigilante terrorists to operate breaking many laws, refuse to further investigate these deaths.
These vigilante racists groups have ties to and are supported by whits supremacists groups, NOFEAR, CCoC, SOS, FAIR, Numbers USA<, AlpacUS, V DARE, etc etc.
According to these groups, Immigrants especially Hispanics, and Hispanics in general are responsible for all the countries problems.
Immigrants especially Hispanics are demonized as scumbags, disease carriers, terrorists, job stealer’s, suckers of social services, criminals, and being a burden to society.
However a wide array of studies done by unbiased credible Organizations and Universities, nullify these accusations to be unfounded. Yet no amount of credible evidence can convince racists of the truth.
Racists do not seek truth, their agenda is to promote hate.
White supremacists and organizations that promote hate, (like those listed above) tend to seek and attract members, who are mostly uneducated, low income, non working whites, and also use Hispanic members to cover their racism, who are later kicked to the curb when no longer needed.
Many of these people have been affected by poor choices made in life or is some cases, suffered economic dislocation caused by negative government policies.
Because of their hate racists channel their anger and frustration over their own condition, toward a clear target, Immigrants especially Hispanics.
Some people or groups may disavow the overtly racist rhetoric of hate groups, but they nonetheless advance the same type of racists arguments in more “respectable” or “whitewashed” language.
These groups or people work collaboratively with white supremacists hate groups, by using the same language and rhetoric to demonize Immigrants especially Hispanics.
Many popular conservatives who openly display their bigotry, such as Tom Tancredo, Patrick Buchanan, Lou Dobbs, Glen Beck, Duncan Hunter, and Brian Bilbray combine populist rhetoric, lies, and propaganda on economic Issues with racist, anti-Immigrant especially Hispanic Ideology.
The overt racism of hate groups, and those who support their rhetoric both serve to divide people who might otherwise find common ground in social struggles for justice.
While they may attract followers with the power of their rhetoric, lies and propaganda, such anti-immigrant especially Hispanic movements do nothing to address the root cause of suffering, the economic, social, and political structures that maintain an unjust and increasingly unequal distribution of wealth, power, and privilege.
Instead they substitute a lethal combination of resentment, scapegoating, and hatred………the classic recipe for fascism……which has been the demise of every “superpower”.
If these racists attacks are allowed to continue, soon we might see a repeat of “operation wetback”, in which more than 500,000 Mexicans including numerous U.S. citizens were rounded up and deported.
Being left with no credible options, and only lies, to demonize Immigrants and Hispanics, many racists are choosing to focus on the illegality of crossing the border without having proper documentation.
If breaking this rule were considered a crime, the burden of proof would fall on the Federal government in a court of law. The government has admitted it would go bankrupt trying to prosecute these cases because of the cost. This is why breaking this rule is punishable by deportation.
It may be illegal to seek freedom and opportunity in this country, but it isn’t immoral. I admire the courage of Immigrants who leave all that is familiar to them, risking life and limb on stormy seas and deadly deserts, in order to move to a strange land where everything is unfamiliar and potentially hostile.
Most of our ancestors moved for freedom and opportunity, and we are the beneficiaries. Thank God they weren’t arrested , and sent packing as the racists seek to do with the Immigrants of today. One might wonder whether we could have mustered the same measure of courage if we had been in their shoes.
In the first case, many immigrants are great entrepreneurs who offer jobs to Americans. Others immigrants take jobs, but they never “take” jobs that are not willingly offered to them by eager employers.
Being an employer, and having a choice to hire a native born worker or an Immigrant, most employers hire the immigrant. Why? Americans are surly good workers. But the act of migration is seen as proof of vigor, ambition, determination, and courageous self- reliance.
Americans have a moral right to make these choices for themselves, as employees and as employers. The irrational premise behind our nation’s immigrations laws is that a native born American has a “right” to a particular job, not because he earned it , but because he was born here. To this “right,” the law sacrifices the employer’s right to hire the best employees, and the immigrant’s right to take a job he deserves. To put it succinctly, initiative and productiveness are sacrificed to sloth and inertia.
The “American dream” is essentially the freedom of each individual to rise as far as his abilities take him. The opponents of immigrants, however, want to repudiate that vision by turning America into a privileged preserve for those who want the law to set aside jobs for them, jobs they cannot freely earn through their own efforts. Any immigrant who is here should be allowed to stay, and any employer who wants to hire him should be allowed to do so. This is after all a free country.
To the legalist, however, who places law above moral right, the employer who hires as he pleases is a criminal. The legalist wants stricter penalties against the employers who defy state mandate on hiring. He fails to see that violations of certain laws can be illegal but not immoral.
Governments do not decide morality. Governments behave morally when upholding moral actions and behave immorally when suppressing moral action. Morality is based on principal far more constant and profound than the variant whims of majority votes.
The people who understood this best were those rebels who defied the law of the day to pen these words:
We hold these Truths to be self evident, that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
To George Washington this meant,
The bosom of America is open to receive not only the opulent and respectable stranger, but the oppressed and percuted of all nations and religions, whom we should welcome to a participation of all our rights and privileges.
Liquidmicro
Nothing like cut and paste, eh, Evelyn. It almost makes you look semi-intelligent, but then theres that other half that makes you look unintelligible.
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0503h.asp
At least give the URL for your copying and credit to the original author, or is what you have done called plagiarism?
Frank
Evelyn, our immigration laws are racist? Maybe you should move to another country then but you are not likely to find any country that doesn’t have them. Mexico’s immigration laws are stricter than ours are.
Our immigration laws are quite enforceable, they just haven’t been enforced as they should have been. Passing the SAVE ACT will be a step in the right direction to enforce them and so will securing our borders. Employers would be held accountable for hiring illegal aliens. Isn’t that the lawful thing to do?
Just what lies and propaganda are you talking about? The majority of Americans who oppose illegal immigration do not spread lies and they are not racists. Isn’t that race card wore out yet?
Yes, we as citizens do have rights here above foreigners and rightly so.
The American Dream is for those who ask for it, not for those who try to claim it illegally. And by the way, we are not anti-immigrant we are anti-illegal alien.
Yes, all men are created equal as human beings but that doesn’t give anyone the right to violate another country’s immigration laws or any other laws.
So now that the Administrator of that other forum won’t allow insults in there anymore, you are going to come in here and take out your venom in here from now on? Pathetic if Marisa is going to allow that.
Liquidmicro
Here’s the other link of your summary. Again, at least give the URL for others to see where you are coming from.
http://www.afsc.org/immigrants-rights/learn/anti-immigrant.htm
Frank
Marisa, I apologize for those who have turned this woman’s tragic death into a race bashing, illegal immigration issue. I had no intentions of bringing up that subject in this topic. You can see for yourself who did. But I will not sit idlely by and have my fellow law abiding American citizens trashed like that.
Evelyn
Cant play with the big dogs Frank? STAY ON THE PORCH!
Hit another nerve, did I!
It’s plain to see you cant stand for anyone to print the TRUTH!
All I did was tell the truth Frank, I didn’t through holy water on you…..yet!
If Marisa thinks I’m out of line here because I tell the truth, and admired B. Bhutto, and think her last words ring true not only for her country, but for my country as well, all Marisa has to do is let me know, and I will leave on my own.
My race card is definitely worn because you play it every time you post, but at least it’s not shot full of lies and holes like your PATRIOT card is.
Regurgitating the same lies over and over isn’t going to make them true.
Liquid gave you one of the links I referenced to write my article, (thank you Liquid) the other one is wrong. Maby you can use it to learn something, or are you going to ignore it just like you do all the other’s, and keep regurgitating the same lies?
Horace
Congratulations, LM, I was wondering how Evelyn, usually limited in the range of her expressiveness, suddenly became so expansive.
Her usual diatribes can be summed up in her preambles, which are simply variations on the theme: “The racist are able to spew their lies and spread their propaganda, because we allow it. Just like we took to the streets and marched to repel that racists law, we must take to cyberspace to repel these horrendous racists attacks.”
Evelyn, you’re such a fake.
Evelyn
liquid
What you think or don’t think about me bothers me not in the least. Your opinion of me is something I could care less about.
If you ever have something intelligent to post on another subject that is not a regurgitation of the same lies we see over and over, maby than I will debate you on those issues.
Till than I will ignore you, so quit sending me and others to pornographic websites. My system has a lock and wont go there, but others may not have that option. Are you incapable of showing respect?
Marisa Treviño
I am very well aware that the discussion here is getting very hot, especially between certain parties. I’ve even been approached to do something about it but after reviewing all the comments I have to say that what is happening here is only an extension of what I am finding elsewhere.
There are two sides in this debate who want to not only be heard but be recognized as being right. What is happening (everywhere) is that no one is really listening to each other. We’re too busy shouting over one another to prove our points.
I really do try and balance my criticism with how it is seen by “the other side” but I admit that my passion for humane resolutions gets in the way of what some others call the “rule of law.”
As I’ve always said, laws are not infallible. They are made by men and there comes a time to reevaluate if a law is working or not. The greatest wisdom comes in knowing when a law is not effective and to work towards changing it. I think anyone who has liquor in their home today is thankful that our government did away with Prohibition.
I also think 12 million people here living in the shadows is proof that there is something wrong with our immigration system. Blaming these people because they followed the carrot, dangled by our country, to gain their version of prosperity is unjust.
I am not in favor of illegal immigration, I don’t know an advocate who supports the rights of the undocumented who is. The life is too hard, the risks are too great and it leaves the native countries with a bigger disadvantage since they are losing their brightest, bravest and most innovative citizens.
But demonizing them, persecuting them and treating them like they are less than human is unacceptable for any industrialized country, especially one that prides itself on being a world leader.
Though the discussion on Latina Lista is getting “hot,” I won’t intervene. The only time I will do that is when inappropriate language is used. There is no reason to use foul language with another, even in the heat of an argument.
A couple have said that you will no longer post on my site — that is your decision to make. But nothing is ever solved by giving up.
We can all continue arguing our own side or we can take this opportunity to start creating a dialogue that seeks to find a real resolution instead of fighting for the Crown of Being Right.
Who will be first to do this, or first to give up?
It’s all of our choices.
Liquidmicro
Oh, Evelyn, more wit and humor, when you get caught you turn to spitting venom with your forked tongue. Maybe you should learn to cut and paste the links I post into your browser instead of trying to type them in, you can obviously cut and paste others works and claim them as your own. Besides if my links went to pornographic sites, I am pretty sure Marisa would have deleted them by now. You can ignore me all you want, doesn’t bother me in the least, but when you lie and steal others work, I will call you on it.
Evelyn
!!!Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me!!!
The fact that you attack me with names, and the immigrants with lies shows you have nothing left, now Frank, Horace, Eyes, Liquid, anyone want to debate a solution to the Illegal Immigration problem that will show we are still an America to be envied because of our ability to keep being a nation of “Laws” as well as a nation of “Justice”?
Evelyn
I have tried many times to create dialog to find a resolution to the Immigration Issue, and learned very quick, that many on the anti-immigrant side refuse to consider facts, and want nothing to do with the truth.
They prefer to focus on me, and demonizing the immigrants and Hispanics in general.
I learned that the only way to fight their tactics is to expose their lies, and call them what they are, which is racists.
I tried being nice and they taught me the only way to fight fire, is with fire.
As an American I am offended that the world is exposed to this kind of Ignorance, and may think all Americans are racists.
By exposing the lies, and showing these people for what they choose to be. The world is able to see that not all Americans are racists.
These groups of racists are few, but they recruit volunteers from their groups to go to different websites to spread their lies and hate in an effort to recruit people to follow their views.
If we care about our country, as Americans we should not allow this hate to continue and gain momentum, if we do, we are doomed as a country.
These people are blinded by hate and racism and are unable to see the the harm they are causing.
No one in Germany challenged Hitler’s Naziism, which was based on hate and racism, until it was too late.
Those who said nothing are also to blame for the death of the 7 million Jews he killed.
Frank
Evelyn, you wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you square between the eyes because you have an ethnocentric agenda.
Frank
Marisa, so personal attacks and insults are ok just as long as it isn’t profanity?
I know this is a heated issue with two different views but why would you allow others in here to resort to name calling and false accusations rather than debating civilly?
I haven’t told one lie in here and yet I am being accused of being a liar, a xenophobe, a racist, a hater and a white supremist. Is this ok with you, really?
I am sorry but if you want a blog where all will feel welcomed, including those who don’t share you views, this is not the way to go about it. I am very disappointed in you and I hope you will reconsider giving a warning about the nasty insults being thrown around in here. Aren’t we supposed to behave like adults?
Evelyn is one of the worst insulters in another forum and they have clamped down on that so now you are going to allow her to come in here and do likewise? The forum I am speaking of is a Hispanic one.
Horace
Your argument against the validity of our laws against illegal immigration is convoluted. Would you argue that our laws against bank robbery are wrong just because we have a massive increase in crime? If Mexicans and other Central Americans felt they had no need to migrate, and if they respected our laws, there would be no illegal immigration. We wouldn’t even be discussing this issue if foreigners didn’t disrespect our laws. There are two tests for the legitimacy of any laws in a democracy, their constitutionality, and whether they reflect the will of the people. Most Americans would readily affirm their approval of these laws if given the chance. Why don’t you think that this country has the right to control who cross our borders? Mexico and every other country in the world have the same restrictions. If what you say is true, the everyone else is wrong and you and your minority advocacy groups are right. I suggest that your emotions are getting the better of your good judgment on this issue.
Evelyn
You’ve been begging for the list of lies you’ve told about undocumanted Immigrants especially Hispanics, Mexicans, So here goes FRANK!
FRANK’S LIST OF LIES!
“illegal immigration is an issue because loss of American jobs, increase in our medical cost and education”
“Hispanic citizens are supporting the illegal invasion”
“illegal aliens at fault for adds in Spanish and more Spanish in many parts of the U.S.”
“Mexicans who gain citizenship in this country still remain loyal to Mexico that is a fact”
“the 14th has been misrepresented for a long time “and illegal aliens are taking advantage of it”
“the money we will save not having to provide them with their health, education etc v any taxes they pay will create billions in surplus money for us”
Referring to immigrants you stated. “illegal invasion of our country”
You blame immigrants for. “uncontrolled population growth”
Referring to immigrants you stated. “less crowded schools jails hospitals housing roads
Someone made reference to disability and SSI and you state. “illegal aliens shouldn’t be getting those benefits” insinuating they are.
You made reference to ” millions and millions of illegal aliens flooding across our borders”
Referring to undocumented immigrants you stated. “we are taking back our country”
” illegal immigrants are not assimilating”
Referring to undocumented immigrants you state. “they have an agenda to take over this country politically and culturally”
” we are a cash cow for illegal aliens their loyalties still lie in their native countries”
“illegal aliens aren’t immigrants”
“illegals loyalty is to Mexico and are just here to milk our system of freebies AKS the cash cow”
“Americans are struggling to make ends meet because additional taxes we have to pay for the upkeep of illegal aliens in our country.
the negative is in the billions”
“illegal aliens come here and steal our jobs”
“cheap illegal alien labor effects job availability and wages for Americans”
Credible studies show every one of these comments is a LIE! Frank
Horace is even worse in his lies!
Evelyn
Did it ever occur to you Frank, that your lies, which I list above hurt the immigrants, Mexicans, and Hispanics? I am only calling you the names you have branded yourself with.
The worst insulter here is you, because your insults are all lies. Mine are what you have shown yourself to be.
Yes, I post at another forum, and I have never been called on for any violation of rules there or any of the other forums I visit, like you insinuate. It is the trolls using the same lies you do that get mad and use profanity when they are forced to face the truth, that are reprimanded.
What do you expect Frank, for me to sit back, and let you walk all over these people. If you were in their shoes, and someone used lies to demonize you, I would be the first to stand up and defend you.
Frank
Evelyn, everything that I have stated and that you quoted is not a lie! For every study you can come up with to the contrary, I can come up with just as many studies to verify that they are true. The “Congressional Budget” committee just did a study on it and verifies what I am stating among others. Now we can sit here till dooms day and argue about whose facts are right or wrong but that won’t accomplish anything. But just because you choose to believe your sources and I choose to believe mine, doesn’t give you the right to call me and others in here racists and other vile names. That isn’t the way that an adult would debate the issue.
The bottom line is and you cannot deny this, is that they are here illegally and have broken our immigration laws and I would still want them deported for that even if it were proven that they were a net postive to this country. They should go back home and apply legally to come here. How is that racist? If I were truly a racist I would say leave and never come back! We need to first find out how many legal foreign workers we actually need and then offer those we need to come back here legally with papers in hand to fill those jobs.
Please stop the insults and false accusations of us who are for the rule of law in here. If you truly seek resolution to this problem with us law abiding Americans (and we are the majority, not the minority in this country), then insults is not the way to go about it.
Marisa, as you can see I have tried to be civil but Evelyn wants no part of it. If another Hispanic forum can clamp down on this hateful behavior, why can’t you? You must realize that personal attacks will do nothing for your side and will just broaden the distance between us.
Frank
By the way, Evelyn. That so-called list of lies of mine are from research sources. I didn’t just pull them out of a hat or make them up to lie. Just like your sources say what they do. Does that make you a liar for quoting YOUR sources? You see you are making this whole thing personal and you shouldn’t. You have your sources and I have mine. By either of us quoting our own sources, doesn’t make either of us liars. I just choose to believe mine and you choose to believe yours but that doesn’t make either one of us liars and certainly not racists for that.
Some of what I stated is just logic and common sense. Let me give you some examples.
1. Schools and hospitals have become more crowded. When you have millions more added to our population, not planned for, it is only common sense that it would create that situation. It doesn’t take a reference source to figure that out. It is just common sense.
2. According to our government “illegal aliens” are not “immigrants”. Yet you attack me for what our government calls them. Where is the lie?
3. Millions of illegal aliens have flooded our borders. Where is the lie there?
I could take each point that I made and blow a whole in your theory that these are lies. These are just a few examples that I have given you.
Everything I have stated is based on common sense and my sources of information. That doesn’t make me a liar nor a racist as you suggest.
Horace
Poco loco Evelyn, you’ve actually refuted nothing of what Frank has said.
“illegal immigration is an issue because loss of American jobs, increase in our medical cost and education”
The vast majority of illegal aliens have no health insurance and there are many places in this country, especially Los Angeles, near the Texas-Mexico border and in the Chicago area where hospital emergency facilities are used by Hispanic illegal aliens. These people do not have the resources to pay and typically leave their bills for middle class citizens to pay, mostly through much higher health care premiums than otherwise. There are many parts of this country that are claiming that illegal aliens are increasing costs of education through the need of ESL classess. These communities have the right to be free of illegal aliens, under our current immigration laws.
“Hispanic citizens are supporting the illegal invasion”
This is a fact. MALDEF, La Raza, their constituencies, immigration lawyers, and other apologists are putting up roadblocks to our deportation efforts and indirectly, if not directly encouraging illegal aliens to stay and others to come. They guise their efforts as being in the defense of civil rights but their real goal is to make our laws impotent so they can’t be enforced. This should be transparent, even for poco loco Evelyn.
“illegal aliens at fault for adds in Spanish and more Spanish in many parts of the U.S.”
“Adds”, or “ads”, as literate people call them are in response to what big business perceives as the new Hispanc illegal alien clientelle. U.S. businesses today have no civic soul, so it’s not surprising that they would take advantage of illegal activity to make a buck.
“Mexicans who gain citizenship in this country still remain loyal to Mexico that is a fact”
Mexican politicians have been very open in their expectations that Mexicans who migrate to the U.S. will vote in Mexican elections, regardless of their U.S. citizenship. It’s obvious by Mexico’s aggressiveness that they expect to have influence over U.S. policies through their duel citizenship citizens.
“the 14th has been misrepresented for a long time “and illegal aliens are taking advantage of it”
Mexicans aren’t the only foreigners who come here illegally, or legally while on visas, to have children. I challenge anyone to argue that the writers of the 14th Amendment had illegal immigrants in mind when they wrote it. Can anyone out there seriously argue that violators of our immigration laws should be rewarded with citizenship for their children as the fruit of their act? It’s for this reason that those who you would call racist object to birthright citizensip for illegal alien children. Many other nations do not practice jus solis, so which should we be any different? Illegal alien Mexican or other illegal alien nationals should not be rewarded with a blood link to this country as the result of expressing contempt for our laws. It’s not logical or morally right.
“the money we will save not having to provide them with their health, education etc v any taxes they pay will create billions in surplus money for us”
This country should permit immigration on the basis of what is good for the citizens in this country, not as charity for those who live in another. Our immigration laws are designed to preclude the admission of those who would become net burdens to the U.S. As I’ve stated before, who can make the case that accepting millions of people of low literacy and skills as citizens will utltimately be for the good. For years we’ve been making the claims that our educational system has been putting out an inferior product and that our children are not being imparted with the necessary skills to compete in the world, yet here we are, ready to adopt millions of foreigners who don’t even speak English. Adopting millions of ill educated people is a step back form our goal to be a world class competitor. No other country would accept such people, so why should we be any diffefent?
Referring to immigrants you stated. “illegal invasion of our country”
If 12-20 million unlawful entrants isn’t an invasion, then I don’t know what is. You’re such a fool, Evelyn, if you expect anyone to do otherwise.
“You blame immigrants for. “uncontrolled population growth”
Gee, tens of thousands of unlawful entrants crossing our borders every year isn’t uncontrolled population growth. Only someone like you would have us believe something so foolish.
“Referring to immigrants you stated. “less crowded schools jails hospitals housing roads”
Regardless of your ignorance, it is a fact that there are illegal aliens in our federal and state prisons. We pay millions in taxes every year to keep them encarcerated. If our borders were under contol they would not be there, would they?
Illegal aliens do occupy hospital beds and most, like many poor Americans, can’t afford to pay for their stays. Illegal aliens contribute unnecessarily to this burden to the taxpayer. If they weren’t in this country, they wouldn’t be such a burden, would they? Our charitable resources are limited and taxpayers shouldn’t be forced against their will to pay for illegal aliens who shouldn’t be in this country. This is a policy that is practiced by every other Western nation on this planet. If you want to criticize that policy, then you’ll have to criticize most of the developed world.
“Someone made reference to disability and SSI and you state. “illegal aliens shouldn’t be getting those benefits” insinuating they are.”
No comment.
“You made reference to ” millions and millions of illegal aliens flooding across our borders””
The thousands that cross the border every day and those who have already crossed are reason enough to be upset for most Americans with common sense. Those who are not are either ostriches or have friends and family they’ve been aiding and abetting contrary to federal law. Which are you, Evelyn?
“Referring to undocumented immigrants you stated. “we are taking back our country””
I agree with this. I’m sure Mexicans would agree with doing so if their country were experiencing the same thing. We should be taking control of our borders, enforcing workplace laws and forcing those who’ve violated the laws of the American people back to their homelands. You may not like it, but it’s well within the right of the American people to do so. It’s their country, not Mexicos.
” illegal immigrants are not assimilating”
Many do not even bother, or have no wish to do so, especially those who come here just to send money back. They live a bachelor life in squalid conditions just to send most of their money back to Mexico, or other countries in Central America. This doesn’t matter anyway, as I don’t favor giving them time to do so. Why bother concerning ourselves with this issue, as deportation, voluntarily or by force should be our national goal.
“Referring to undocumented immigrants you state. “they have an agenda to take over this country politically and culturally””
This is the nature of immigrants. When the Irish and Italians came to America, they fought for political control of New York City. There was violence and corruption for decades, until everyone got tired of it. La Raza, et al, see it as their big day. Birthrates for Hispanics are high, and coupled with the amnesty they’re trying to ram down our throats, they have expectations of politica power. The average illegal alien many not care whether they are pawns in a political powerplay, but they are.
” we are a cash cow for illegal aliens their loyalties still lie in their native countries”
I say that it is natural for non-Hispanic America to suspect that the current invasion of illegal Hispanics with the apparent open support of Hispanic Americans is little different that a non-military anchlaus styled on the German annexation of Austria. German influence in Austria’s politics resulted in the loss of its political automony. While I wouldn’t expect that Mexico would gain total contro, I would expect expanded influence contrary to our best interests. The actual invaders today are civilians, but the political consequences are frightening. The Hispanic community and the Mexican government’s interference in our immigration affairs do nothing to allay such fears. Your friends in Mexico City have done more harm to the cause of illegal aliens with the loud demands than the illegal aliens themselves.
“illegal aliens aren’t immigrants”
This is true. Where the law is concerned, they are not immigrants. They have no more status as immigrants than tourist visa holders to Disney World. As Yave loves to say, they are “out of status”. The people you speak of are illegal aliens. The law governs who is and isn’t an immigrant, not illegal aliens, not immigration lawyers, not advocacy groups, nor poco locos like you, Evelyn. The truth is sometimes inconvenient, isn’t it?
“Americans are struggling to make ends meet because additional taxes we have to pay for the upkeep of illegal aliens in our country.
the negative is in the billions”
Americans do pay for the consequences of illegal aliens, not only in jobs, but with the cost of fences and security measures to keep them out, the addition of thousands of Border Patrol agences and ICE employees, and an immigration court system.
“illegal aliens come here and steal our jobs”
Illegal aliens do not have the right to take a job in this country, period. It is within the perview of the citizens of this country to decide who is elligible. Any job taken by an illegal alien is one that’s stolen. It doesn’t matter whether someone is occupying it at the time, or not. We have a legal system of hiring guest workers. If businesses are too lazy to go through the process or think that the process is too onerous, then we have a Congress that will hear their redress of grievences.
“cheap illegal alien labor effects job availability and wages for Americans”
The fact is that we have uncontrolled borders, and that means that the uncessant migrant generators in the form of El Slavador, Guatemala, Mexico and even South America will be sending their people north until we reach the point where we have mobs of foreigners demanding work and inflating our labor pool to such unmanageable level that wages will spiral downward. Until the sending nations get their acts together, or the U.S. conrols its border, this nation will be under threat by millions of unhappy foreigners who may wind up as a serious source of social unrest in this country.
EYES OF TEXAS
Just as you say there are studies to bebunk these statements as lies, I can produce studies that show them as factual. Only problem is, you would whip out your racist branding iron and condemn them all as hate groups since they don’t follow your tunnel vision way of looking at the plight of illegal aliens.
FACT. There are millions of legal American citizens unemployed that would be more than willing to do the job now occupied by an illegal alien. When someone (and there are millions) recieves medical care and are not insured and do not pay for the care they recieved, that cost is past on to those with medical insurance by increasing the cost of our premiums. The hospital industry is not going to take the loss, neither is the insurance companies. It gets passed down to the insured. Who do you think pays for extra teachers for non-English speaking students? Who pays for the government sponsered programs for underprivileged students that require financial help to stay in school? You and I pay for it in our ever rising property and school taxes, that’s who.
FACT. Most, but not all, Hispanics are true to their ethnic heritage and go out of their way to support those like themselves. They see the day that Hispanics are the majority in this country and open borders and illegal immigration is the means to the end.
FACT. Commercialism. To reach the people they are trying to sell things to in a particular area. In my sanctuary city of Houston, many communities resemble any small town in Mexico. All business signs, billboards and advertising is in Spanish. Most businesses do their business in Spanish. “Where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico”.
FACT. Most, but not all, Hispanics are overly true to their ethnic heritage. Even after they gain citizenship, they truely don’t break ties with their mother countries and become 100% loyal to their new country. It’s ethnic ties trumping assimilation.
FACT. That amendment was structured to protect the citizenship of free black slaves and their decendants. It has nothing to do with a foreigner dropping an “anchor baby” to secure their place in America.
I can continue this process of supporting every statement that you are calling lies, but it would not change your tunnel vision way of looking at these issues through your Hispanic eyes. You see it your way, and I’ll see it mine.
EYES OF TEXAS
Anyone opposing the plight of illegal aliens and the impact of illegal immigration is automatically branded as racist by those that see these issues through the eyes of those ethnically similar to the illegal aliens. That is a fact and here are some more.
FACT. There are millions of unemployed Americans that would gladly do the jobs presently occupied by illegal aliens. The insured pay for the care given to those that can not pay for the care they recieve at emergency rooms or neighborhood clinics. Their non-payment is passed on to us, the insured, in the form of higher insurance premiums. Who do tou think pays for the extra teachers that teach to special classes of non-English speaking students? Who pays for the needs of underprivleged students who require government sponsored programs to stay in school? I know my property and school taxes continue to rise. How about yours?
FACT. “Where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico”. Most, but not all, Hispanics foresee a day they will be the majority in this country. What better way to accomplish this than by supporting open borders and mass illegal immigration. Hispanic ethnic ties are greater than the sovereignty of our nation.
FACT. My sanctuary city of Houston has neighborhoods that could be mistaken for any small town in Mexico. Not one word of English on any business front, billboard or neighborhood newspaper. Why? Commercialism, selling services to those more comfortable with speaking and doing business in Spanish. These neighborhoods harbor a large population of illegal aliens that blend in with the citizens.
FACT. Hispanics are openly proud of their heritage and tend to hold on to their ties with their mother countries. Ethnic ties are usually, but not always, stronger than loyalty to their new country. Once again, “Where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico”
I know, I know, this is getting too easy, and yes I can find studies to support not only these facts, but also the rest of the so called lies in that post. Most of you that see these issues through your Hispanic tunnel vision will never admit that illegal immigration and/or illegal aliens are a detriment the this nation of laws.
Liquidmicro
What is being advocated by the ANTI’s is Enforcement through Attrition. It is/has been shown to work, look to AZ and OK, soon to be TN.
Dallas Morning News:
The state-funded University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston might soon have to curtail some potentially life-saving services, such as cancer treatment, because it can’t cope financially with an overload of illegal-immigrant patients. Similarly at Parkland Hospital in Dallas and numerous other county-funded medical facilities, budgets are at the breaking point, largely because of demand from illegal immigrants and other uninsured patients.
The federal government is supposed to pick up much of the tab, as it should, since illegal immigration is Washington’s problem. But Texas’ share of federal funds for immigrants’ hospital care, $47 million last year, covered only a fraction of the expenses. State and county taxpayers wind up paying the rest.
Doctors are in an increasingly precarious position. They must honor their oath to heal the sick as best they can without discrimination. Yet public hospitals are taxpayer funded, and when too much money goes to care for people with no legal right to be in this country, doctors and hospital administrators feel pressure to draw the line.
They’ve tried to curtail non-emergency care for illegal immigrants but have quickly faced threats from advocacy groups that they’ll start sending them directly to emergency rooms, where by law no one can be turned away. Doctors are being turned into de facto immigration-enforcement agents, which clearly is not their job.
…..
•72 percent of Dallas’ immigrants are from Mexico. The national average is 28 percent.
•82 percent of births at Parkland Hospital are Hispanic, and 40 percent of their parents are illegal immigrants.
•Unreimbursed state Medicaid expenditures for illegal immigrants in 2000: $18.1 million; in 2005: $38.7 million. That’s an increase of 114.3 percent.
SOURCES: Texas comptroller’s office; data compiled by DFW International from various studies
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