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Guest Voz: Prominent Urban Demographer Says A Vote Against Immigrant Workers is a Vote Against 77 Million Retiring Baby Boomers

By Professor Dowell Myers

Dowell Myers is a professor of policy, planning and development at the University of Southern California and author of Immigrants and Boomers: Forging a New Social Contract for the Future of America (Russell Sage Foundation, 2007)

(The following post was provided by the author and is a reprint of an essay contributed to The Reform Institute’s compilation: Many Voices, One Dream: A Collection of Insights and Recommendations for Achieving Meaningful Immigration Reform”)

Recent debates have focused on immigrants and ignored how the rest of us are changing. Surprising to some, but immigrants are part of the solution — not the problem — to avoiding a great demographic train wreck.

With the Baby Boomers on the doorstep of retirement, we face the long-expected crisis in social security, as well as a health care dilemma, and along with that the prospect of sustained labor force losses and a depletion of our middle class taxpayer base. At the same time, massive numbers of elderly home sellers will flood an already weakened housing market.
Immigrants can’t help, can they?
Not according to a majority of both Democrats and Republicans (51% and 56%) who believe instead that “immigrants today are a burden on our country because they take our jobs, housing and health care,” according to a poll by the Pew Research Center.
Who wants them and who needs them is a frequent sentiment. No wonder sensible immigration reform has shaky support if that is the public’s belief.
Really this is a controversy about the future of America, so let’s get down to it. Immigration reform is not about the past, but instead about the decade ahead, a future with real people working hard and getting older.
Our senior ratio is posed to skyrocket, after decades of stability. From roughly 24 seniors per 100 working age residents, the ratio will surge in the coming decade to 32 and in the decade after that will hit 41.
Absorbing this sudden 30% jump in the senior ratio in a single decade will be a terrific jolt, but the jump is repeated in TWO consecutive decades, testing America like never before.
The quality of life for our elderly and their supporting families is in jeopardy.
Who will join the ranks of taxpayers to help shoulder this substantially greater burden of seniors with their much-deserved benefits? How much will we be forced to cut retirement benefits if we are to survive the double decades of growing burden? And who will actually care for so many more of our eldest citizens, given that homecare workers are often immigrants?
Truly one of the best ways to avoid drastic cuts in Social Security and Medicare benefits is to accelerate into the mainstream the millions of immigrants already in our country.
Another benefit is that these immigrants could be crucial in boosting house values.
Already in the last decade immigrants doubled their nationwide presence in home buying, accounting for one-third or better of the increase in homeowners in California, New York, Illinois, Texas and Florida. After 20 years of US residence, more than 50% of Latinos also have advanced into homeownership and, with better education and incomes, they could offer sellers an even better price.
We need to think about the real role immigrants can play in the future of America.
If we just do the math of adding 10 or 20 years to all our ages we can figure how much more we will need immigrants for a better future. But those immigrants can’t be recruited all in a rush. They need to be brought on line thoughtfully and steadily, in preparation for our growing needs.
This top-heavy increase in retirees is like nothing we have seen before, requiring more workers, taxpayers, and home buyers. Squeezing extra value out of all our residents, we need to cultivate our neglected minority youth, ask your elderly to work longer, and yes, embrace the immigrants who have come to work in America.
We need them, and anyone who would reject our immigrant workers is also rejecting the needs of 77 million retiring Baby Boomers.

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  • Frank
    February 1, 2008 at 12:37 pm

    First of all the heated discussion about all of this isn’t about “immigrants” it is about illegal aliens. I put no credibility in articles that don’t differeniate between these two groups.
    Seniors are staying in the workforce much longer these days and many if not most of them are not retiring from minimum wage jobs. How do uneducated illegal aliens expect to replace workers with at least a high school education and at least some college?
    Legalizing millions more uneducated people in this country is not the answer to the baby boomers leaving the workforce. All we are doing by that is perpetuating an endless baby boomer generation when they themselves are old enough to retire. Who is going to replace them or are we just going to continue down the path of endless population growth? We need to stabilize our population growth and scale back our economic growth to fit a citizen population with a reasonable number of immigrants coming in each year instead.

    February 1, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    I am in full agreement with this senario right up to a point. My agreement ends when the people in our country are called immigrants instead of illegal aliens. We will need legal immigrants, as this nation always has, but they must be brought in through a system based on what is required. If the country needs more health care personel, recruit them as needed. The only way to maintain a balance is to account for each and every illegal alien now present in our country. If it is found that we have an overabundance in a particular profession, keep the number required and send the abundance packing. Like what was stated before, we don’t need 1000 retiring chemical engineers replaced in the workforce by 1000 sheetrock hangers or janitors. That would be a formula which would surely drag the economy down. Those that are chosen to hold down a job will be here on a work permit only and be required to leave if his services are no longer required.

    February 1, 2008 at 4:14 pm

    Why was Dowell Myers inflated senario posted in here twice? He sounds like a true California liberal nut case that does not fully understand that there is the next generation of American citizens right behind the Boomers who, in most part, will be better educated and fully able to keep the U.S. economy afloat. Never underestimate the true grit of Americans. Sure, I may have to work for a few more years past retirement age, but it will be by choice, not because of the economy. All the tripe about needing 20-25 million illegal aliens in the U.S. to hold down menial jobs is not a benefit to anyone.

  • Marisa Treviño
    February 1, 2008 at 4:56 pm

    The first time that featured Prof. Myers was a post I had written covering his telephonic briefing about his latest report. Though the two posts basically do cover the same material, I felt it important to feature him in his own words and so invited him to submit a post as such.
    Seeing that his presentation of the facts are in a very matter-of-fact way without embellishment or exaggeration, I hardly find your critique of him to be credible. What I do read in your criticism is that because he is saying something you don’t like and you disagree with then he must be a “nut case,” of which I’m sure you think the same of me.
    On that note, I will forgive you.

  • SeniorMoreno
    February 1, 2008 at 7:47 pm

    BEWARE !!!!

  • Jax
    February 1, 2008 at 7:49 pm

    I have always been in support of legal immigration. I fail to see how any reasonable person can be in support of illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is against the law. How could I make it any easier for you to understand?
    Is a person from South America more valuable than a person from Europe? Canada? Asia? I don’t think so.
    By the way, I have also taught at the University level and, as such, am unimpressed by most of these people. My degree is in English with a minor in Sociology.

  • Evelyn
    February 1, 2008 at 8:06 pm

    The low IQers, who are ignorant in the proper use of grammar in referance to the English language (but expect immigrants to know English the first day they get here, HYPOCRITES) have a problem figuring out that ILLEGAL refers to an act or action. Illegal does not refer to a person. Their is no law in the western hemisphere making it illegal to for a person to exist, so NO HUMAN BEING IS ILLEGAL.
    The term illegal alien is a term used by immigration officials to define the status of a person, but not the humanization or right of that person to exist as being legal or illegal.
    USCIS uses the the term alien to refer to to the variety of status circumstances.
    The status of immigrants may be that of:
    1. “illegal alien”
    2. “resident alien”
    3. “alien worker”
    4. “alien spouse”
    5. “alien fiance”
    6. “alien relative”
    Websters New World Dictionary defines the adjective illegal as:
    1. prohibited by law
    2. prohibited by official rules–against the law
    There is no law prohibiting a persons humanity or making a person against the law.
    There are many laws prohibiting various acts or making various acts against the law.
    The same dictionary defines immigrant as:
    non native PERSON intending to reside permanently in another country
    To say that people do illegal acts (immigrate without proper authorization in this case) implies nothing about their humanity. It is the activity that is illegal. “Illegal” is used as an adjective to apply to acts not people.
    When the offence is speeding, act of driving faster than the speed limit, or shooting someone, the perpetrator is not labeled as an “illegal driver” or “Illegal speeder” or “Illegal shooter” or “Illegal killer”.
    The term “Illegal alien”, used when referring to a person is used for one purpose, to dehumanize the person it is being used against.
    Dehumanization is the process by which members of a group of people assert “Inferiority” of another group thru subtle or overt acts or statements. Dehumanization may be directed by an organization (such as a state) or may be the composet of individual sentiments and actions, as with some type of de-facto racism. State organized dehumanization has been directed against perceived racial or ethnic groups, nationalities, or foreigners, in general.
    The act of immigrating to come to this country makes those who immigrate, immigrants regardless of their status. If they come here without going through the proper procedure, or without legal authorization than they can be called unauthorized immigrants.
    I am sure these FACTS will not stop the Ignoramuses from flaunting their ignorance and hypocrisy. They will continue to use “Illegal alien” in reference to people, instead of a referance of status like USCIS does. They will also continue to ask that others learn English while refusing to use proper English and grammar.
    Instead they will spin, lie, misinform, manipulate, and convince themselves into thinking they have convinced others that they know something, when actually they KNOW NOTHING. Then they will celebrate by agreeing with each other, as if that gives validity to anything! After confusing themselves with delusions and high fiving themselves for nothing and all the dust settles……. they will still be painfully aware that the two front runners for President of my soon to be great country will soon get a democratic congress to pass COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM without even giving them a thought. The racists on the other hand will be seen as another unsavory speck of dust in America’s HISTORY.

  • Publius
    February 2, 2008 at 8:07 am

    “Truly one of the best ways to avoid drastic cuts in Social Security and Medicare benefits is to accelerate into the mainstream the millions of immigrants already in our country>”
    This doesn not come close to solving SS in the long term. The distance from the canyon’s edge increases, as does its depth. Adding undereducated poor to our society only slightly postpones the enevitable failure of the Pozi schmee call SS, and makes its failure more precipitous, as considerally more poor will be getting far more than they put in. This man is surely betraying his integrity by serving to promote the interests of illegal alien advocacy groups.
    “Already in the last decade immigrants doubled their nationwide presence in home buying, accounting for one-third or better of the increase in homeowners in California, New York, Illinois, Texas and Florida. After 20 years of US residence, more than 50% of Latinos also have advanced into homeownership and, with better education and incomes, they could offer sellers an even better price.”
    This truly deceptive. A very high percentage of those illegal aliens who were given subprime loans are now about to lose their homes. These people, who could not otherwise obtain a loan if prudent lending practices had been practiced, were given no-money down balloon mortgages, are now in the process of foreclosure. This man is disingenuous in saying that these same people will be the saviors of the housing market, when most will be losing their shirts.
    “But those immigrants can’t be recruited all in a rush. They need to be brought on line thoughtfully and steadily, in preparation for our growing needs.”
    One would be hard-pressed to believe that this statement advocates accepting illiterate Latin Americans. Recruitment implies selectivity based upon merit and exclusivity. Could the poor of Latin America compete favorably with their better educated Asians and European brothers. I hardly think so.
    This article hardly supports an amnesty for illegal aliens or the importation of additional poor and illiterate. To paraphrase Horace, its not in the interests or immigration policies of the vast majority of the world’s nations to foster poverty or illiteracy within their borders.

  • laura
    February 2, 2008 at 11:54 am

    Senior Moreno – I agree with you. Obama gained a lot of my respect, now that he has clearly said he is in favor of undocumented people being able to get a driver’s license.
    Saying thst, he is standing up against many opportunists in his own party.
    This is a symbol as much as it is a very practical matter.
    For Hillary Clinton to very clearly say she is against drivers’ licenses: That to me is just as much a symbol.
    Hillary Clinton’s stance against drivers’ licenses is symbolic of how the only things she says and does, are those calculated to advance her own power. No exceptions: it is about her. Last and foremost: she voted for the Iraq war every single time there was a vote.
    I really don’t understand Latino/as who plan to vote for Clinton.

  • SenorMoreno
    February 2, 2008 at 12:25 pm

    the most important newspaper endorsement out there. Not because it’s the most prestigious name or the widest read, but because it offers the potential to actually move voters. Obama is working overtime to introduce himself as a champion of Latino interests and immigrant rights, and this represents a powerful affirmation from an influential voice within the Hispanic community.

  • Frank
    February 2, 2008 at 4:21 pm

    It is incorrect that if the illegals get legalized and granted a path to citizenship having driven without a driver’s license prior to that, that it would disqualify them from citizenship. The only thing that might disqualify them would be felony record.
    It is also incorrect to claim that Latinos are being used as a scapegoat for job losses. The issue is illegal aliens not Latinos per se. Illegals can be of any ethnicity.
    The term illegal alien is the term that our government has applied to those who are in our country without papers. Americans didn’t make us this term and therefore no one should be beating up on them for using the government term and be called ignorant for it. No one is suggesting by using that term that a human is here illegally on this earth. What it means is that they have committed an illegal act and the word alien means foreigner or non-citizen.
    Certainly there are some Americans who lack proper grammar but when they speak English one can understand them. That is all that is expected of immigrants is to be able to communicate in English and no one is expecting perfect grammar from them anymore than we expect perfection from ourselves.

  • Jax
    February 2, 2008 at 7:24 pm

    The word “illegal” as used to reference those who are here illegally is commonly accepted as a noun. I’m afraid you must deal with it as such because it won’t change

  • Horace
    February 2, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    “There is no law prohibiting a persons humanity or making a person against the law.
    There are many laws prohibiting various acts or making various acts against the law.”
    How about “thief”, “crook”, “rapist”, or “bank robber”? Those are very descriptive words applicable to persons who commit acts that are against the law. They are not meant to steal anyone’s humanity, but do describe what such persons. Just because you don’t like the term “illegal alien” doesn’t change reality. Illegal immigrants/aliens are breaking the law and that’s why their labeled as such. It’s funny that only illegal immigrant advocates object to this term. I suppose that if you had a brother that was a thief you’d object to others describing him that way, but that’s life. Accept it, as it’s out there and few people seem inclined to accommodate your objections.

  • Frank
    February 3, 2008 at 6:54 am

    For the life of me I cannot understand why any citizen thinks that someone in this country illegally should be given a driver’s license.
    I don’t understand why anyone would advocate ethnic politiics in this country either.
    Both things go against what this country stands for and that is the rule of law and that we are all Americans one and all and no one group is special or should be catered too.

  • FM
    February 4, 2008 at 3:33 am

    Let’s talk about laws.
    And, let’s talk about today, not the past.
    How about all the treaties broken with Native American tribes? I don’t mean one, two or three, I mean all of them. Every single one. Still even to this day, not yesterday, not in some ancient history.
    Besides, don’t you think it’s a little convenient that you so easily want to forgive the transgressions of your ancestors yet suddenly now want laws enforced. No one is saying you personally are responsible for that old history, yet, you are a participant in the history of today, and today, you seem to have a hard time coming into modernity. Any chance you might write some letters or blog entries on enforcing those treaties??
    Let’s talk about the trust relationship the government has in “holding” resources “in trust” for native american people of this country, that has lost, without explanation or even an audit (in more than a hundred years), billions of dollars from the poorest segment of our society. Today that money is gone, not in the past.
    Now, just to help so we can better understand each other. When you say millions of illiterate from Latin America….let’s stop there for a moment. First of all, many, many of the immigrants that come to our shores from around the world, including Mexico and Latin America, are indeed college educated professionals who were unable to find work in their countries, and could find work here. I do not lie. Talk to a few immigrants, do some research.
    Yet, I must also take exception with your characterization of immigrants without a formal education as “uneducated” for two reasons, although I grant you the argument in the sense that some without an education can be called by definition “uneducated” – however:
    1) The accessibility to education in many other countries is extremely limited, and often out of reach for most families. Its perhaps easy for you to look down on people who do not have the same opportunity as you, but it seems rather unJesus like.
    2) I believe people who may not have a formal education are indeed also quite literate in many things that perhaps Frank and others are not. For example, do you know how to grow your own food? Do you know how to read the seasons, which herbs can heal what, the cactus that can help with diabetes? Fix your own car? Care for your elderly relative? Are these any less valuable skills and abilities? Let me tell you, pharmaceutical companies find that information pretty valuable until its time to pay people back for their local knowledge, a tradition of hand wiping clean that goes back a long time, to say, around the time of the conquest.
    Don’t go getting any divisions going between European and Asian and Latino immigrants, whom you must on some level believe are better than Latino immigrants for making such an absurd comment. Hatred Politics, tsk, tsk.
    By definition, this notion of ethnic politics is ridiculous. You are defining ethnic politics as any defense of any opinion other than your own. To bring up the very real history between Mexico and the U.S., the connection to the southwest and west, and the concentration of people from Mexico as well as other Latin American countries, is not ethnic politics, its real world, today politics. I say this not as a challenge, its a reality.
    Are you claiming then that this country has no need for my opinion because I bring with me the history of my people and connection to both countries? You therefore are attempting to politicize my every existence and I won’t have it. It’s a cheap shot. The west coast deserves a say in this country, and won’t be ethnically cleansed to prove citizenship.
    If the workers hadn’t been needed, and the gate hadn’t been open, 12 million people would not be here now. Like the fossil industries, it’s no longer possible to sustain hatred politics.
    Driver’s licenses? Because it makes sense, because it recognizes and acknowledges that for a long time people have been allowed to come over the border and work, live, and grow here as individuals, families and communities. Not just today, but since the first border records in 1904, and thousands of years before.
    You can’t tell a region, a history or a people not to exist. So we better find a way through. First, show a little respect in the way you address people, be more sensitive to how you come across by continually trying to make illegal the person. It’s just plain hurtful.
    Lastly, before you go talking any more about anyone else not learning English, I dare you to start a campaign to get all the U.S. citizens living in Mexico, with by far the largest U.S. ex pat population, to start learning some Spanish. Americans can be the absolute worst in learning the languages of where they live, assuming others to conform to them, in our country or outside.
    I am glad Obama had the guts to come out to say what is just too plain to see. We have much, much bigger fish to fry in our future, like saving the environment, switching to energy efficient transportation, funding education, health care, our economy, our growing elder care, our need for politicians who are truthful and can inspire a big picture large enough to once again shine like the light of hope we inspired when I was growing up.
    Thank you to the author for shedding some rationality so that we can consider the reality and not just irrational, emotional, politics based on hate. Why do I always claim you hate? See above.

  • Frank
    February 4, 2008 at 9:43 am

    FM, I don’t feel the need to “forgive” my ancestors. They did what they did and it had nothing to do with me and sin is sin and I don’t advocate it by anyone. Besides, my ancestors came over here way after the native indian wars and treaties were signed and immigration laws were established by the country known as the USA. Every country in this modern day world has immigration laws now and yes, citizens have a right to expect them to be enforced. If there were any treaties broken by the USA, then it is up to those who are being violated to take it up with our government. Would I expect you to fight a law suit for me?
    The illiterate immigrants from south of our border are not coming here legally. Comprende? I do not look down on those who lack an education. Heaven knows we have many of them who are citizens of this country. But we don’t need millions of uneducated immigrants in this country competing with our own poor for those jobs. This is about the rule of law and our immigration laws and controlling our population growth for the benefit of this entire country. Our borders were left wide open so that the greedy businesses would have access to cheap labor. Too bad you refuse to recognize that. There is a difference between “need” and “greed”.
    Who is telling a people that they can’t exist? They need to fix their own countries so that can exist there.
    “Hate politics”? What are you talking about? Sure there are racists and haters on both sides of this issue but the majority of Americans just want our immigration laws enforced, our borders secured and our population stabilized. What is hateful about that? It is wrong to put our own people and our own country first?
    As far as language learning goes. My stance on that is if you choose to move to another country, then you should learn the language of that country and that would include any anglos that move to Mexico. I have no double standard on that.
    All of the other issues you mentioned that Obama is in favor of addressing (he isn’t the only candidate concerned with those issues by the way) are important but so is illegal immigration because it does and can directly affect those other issues.
    As I said, your claims of illegal immigration opposition being that of hate is ridiculous. It is just a way for your side to pull the race card continuously.

  • FM
    February 4, 2008 at 2:50 pm

    Listen, the problem is not asking for laws to be enforced, its doing so after the fact. Comprende?
    Its not just cheap labor, its labor that knows how to do things 90% of our population does not do anymore. Or didn’t when salaries were higher, those jobs were left to immigrants. You and I agree, businesses required to compete in a very global world suddenly needed more cheap labor. This time. What about the other times in our countries’ history when millions of Mexicans (mainly) have been brought “on line” during the 1980’s and at other times.
    Sure, let’s regulate this system for real. Have temporary passes that allow people and families to be able to move across borders as their work brings them here and there.
    But, blaming and hence making immigrants the scapegoat is not enforcing laws, its causing division, hurt, and anger. Enforce laws, but not by ignoring a long history of people coming from Mexico to this country to work and live.
    No one is blaming you for wanting to have the immigration laws enforced but not after the fact, not when you’re talking about 12 million people, who I again reiterate, are a mix of people with formal education, and some people who are not educated yet have valuable skills, obviously, because they are in demand here.
    So, now, let’s deal with the reality and then make laws that take into account that reality by developing comprehensive reform that acknowledges the workers (immigrants) and citizens (you) have gotten the short end of the stick.
    I don’t call you a racist for wanting to put good, realistic, humanistic immigration laws in place. I call you racist because your anger is evident from the numerous posts here on this blogspace that are downright rude, uncivil and insulting towards workers without papers.
    I think if we could agree on not blaming the immigrants, and finding a way to take them into account as people and not cattle, then, we can sit down and talk about “protecting” our country.
    As you must know as an immigrant to this country yourself, that immigrants have made this country the amazing place on earth that it is. Our notion of laws and being a lawful place is so valuable. Yet, we must live the truth too, and recognize the system is broken. You don’t get to come to this country and then shut the door on immigrants. That our country was too lazy to foresee or deal with the issue before now is not the fault of the immigrants.
    Now, what I meant about pursuing the treaties that were broken is this: if you are for laws, and claim we are a nation that stands on laws, then the first laws this country ever signed should be respected to really show we mean what we say when we talk about being a country of laws, not just when the economy shifts and we want someone to blame.
    So, if you care about laws, join the cause. It can take some tribes more than 30 YEARS to get cases up for review. Sound like the justice you know that is meant to be fair, fast and efficient? If you care about our legal system, start there, at the beginning, to enforce laws, not just when your relatives are safely on shore.

  • Jax
    February 4, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    FM: If Americans who do not bother to learn Spanish
    are a concern in Mexico perhaps they should be expatriated! I assume that they are in Mexico illegally. Of course, this would mean the folks who sent all those jobs to Mexico–after all, my wife’s Ford Fusion was built there, would be sent home. Perhaps those Mexican jobs, and all the others sent to Mexico by American companies, should be ended.

  • Horace
    February 4, 2008 at 6:54 pm

    “As you must know as an immigrant to this country yourself, that immigrants have made this country the amazing place on earth that it is.”
    The real core of what makes our country so great is the fact that we have rule of law that prevents justice from becoming the provence of politics and corruption. The laws apply to everyone, and just because ethnocentric advocacy groups find some of them inconvenient doesn’t make them or their friends exempt. And aliens, legal or not, are not enfranchised with the right to change them. Our nation will not permit it to be blackmailed or bullied by any foreigners or their Quisling representatives. If there are any changes to be made it will up to the voters, the “We” in “We The People” of the preamble to the Constitution.

  • Frank
    February 4, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    FM, it is not the fault of your average American citizen that our government allowed this illegal alien tsuami to happen by not securing our borders. We want to hold our government accountable for this and we will.
    This country is not based on illegality to survive in a global market. We are a nation of laws. Most of those employers are making huge profits. They can afford to pay an American to do the job for a fair wage but they hired cheap illegal labor instead.
    You are wrong about Americans not wanting to do those kinds of jobs anymore. We have a huge blue collar workforce in this country and we always have. The only exception would be Ag jobs.
    I have no problem with a temporary guest worker program as long as employers can prove that they can’t find an American to do the job and keeping in mind our population growth also. There is no excuse for the employers, our government or the illegals themselves to not follow our immigration and labor laws, past, present or future. None, nada!
    You are full of it accusing me of being a racist or stating that I have ever been uncivil in here. I have had to defend myself however against people like you who started with the insults first.
    I am not an immigrant. I was born here! But I do agree that “legal” immigrants have been an asset to this country. The system isn’t broken. It is just that our immigration laws weren’t enforced.
    As I said, it is up to each individual or group to fight with their own law suits against this country. I wouldn’t expect you to fight my battles for me. I don’t have time to study the treaties of this country. If you have proof that any were not honored, then take it up with the U.S. government, not me.
    My ancestors were safely on shore after this country was established as the USA and after we had immigration laws and they came here legally. They had nothing to do with this country prior to that.

  • Evelyn
    February 4, 2008 at 8:21 pm

    I am making one more referance to my article on the status of immigrants and the use of the word “Illegal.”
    Like I stated, I am sure these facts will not stop the Ignoramuses(Frank, Jax, and Horace the shoe fit) from flaunting their Ignorance and hypocrisy. They will continue to use “Illegal alien” in referance to people, instead of referance to status, like USCIS does.
    They will also continue to ask that others learn English while refusing to use proper English and grammar.
    Instead they will spin, lie, misinform, manipulate, and convince themselves into thinking that they have convinced others that they know something, when actually they KNOW NOTHING.
    Then they will celebrate by agreeing with each other, as if that gives validity to anything!
    After confusing themselves with delusions and high fiving themselves for nothing, and all the dust settles. They will still be painfully aware that the two front runners for President of my soon to be great country will soon pass Comprehensive Immigration reform without even giving them a thought. The racists on the other hand will be seen as another unsavory speck of dust in Americas History.

  • Horace
    February 5, 2008 at 5:52 am

    Well, Evelyn, to those of us who aren’t enamored with illegal immigrants, the term undocumented immigrant sounds as ludicrous as calling the German army of WWII rude tourists. Or perhaps you like their term lebensraum, which means living space. That’s what the Germans cynically called their invasions. Just because you have no respect for this country’s sovereignty, doesn’t mean you can convince the rest of us to feel the same way. I will support every effort Congress makes to deny residency to your illegal immigrant friends. Anyway, by the time your treachorous friends in Washington get around to an immigration bill, every state the union shall have enacted laws making the presence of your friends so difficult that they’ll all go home.

  • Frank
    February 5, 2008 at 8:10 am

    Perhaps it is the U.S. government that should be called ignorant then by those who don’t like the term “illegal alien” for those in this country without papers rather than Americans who didn’t invent this term. I won’t allow someone to bully me into using the term that THEY like. I will use the CORRECT term coined by our government. It does however fit the situation. Illegal= an illegal act. Alien= foreigner.
    As I have already stated, no one expects immigrants to speak perfect English, many of our own citizens don’t. But that isn’t the point. The point is to know enough English to be able to communicate in it.
    I have certainly seen enough “high fiving” on the pro illegal forums. Don’t know what is unusual about that for those with like mindset to do so.
    The president has no control over how congress votes on issues. Bush wanted CIR too but did he get it? NO!

  • Evelyn
    February 5, 2008 at 11:52 pm

    The only enamored with illegal immigrants here is you. You hate the thought of C.I.Reform, and worked hard to stop it from passing so that means you love illegal immigrants, wide open borders, and you even granted them de-facto amnesty.
    Ahh err, that would make you the one with no respect for this countries sovereignty.
    We will still have plenty of immigrants to put on a pathway to citizenship because ICE cannot deport more than a few thousand. If you think they are leaving you are deluding yourself. Just like you think you can starve them out, we have a plan to help them stay.
    If anyone is going home, I have a feeling it will be you and those of your Ilk. A new home, one where you will be behind bars joining the other racists their for doing something stupid when you like them realize your racists cause is lost.

  • Evelyn
    February 6, 2008 at 12:35 am

    Why should the U.S. gov. be called stupid, when I already pointed out to you twice that USCIS, (immigration services) uses the term correctly. They use it to refer to an immigrant’s status not his person. They always speak in terms of the person classified as “illegal alien,” or the status of the immigrant as “illegal alien.” You are the stupid one because you don’t refer to the classification or the status of the immigrant, you refer to the person as the “illegal alien.”
    Yup, you pro illegals do like high-fiving each other, don’t you?
    I wonder if it’s because you love the “illegal aliens” so much? Or is it the Wide open borders you worked so hard for when you jammed the phone lines on capitol hill, that you like more? Or is it because you are sooo proud of the fact, that you gave them de-facto amnesty? Please do let me know, I am intrigued.
    As a pro-immigrant having lost C.I.Reform because you blocked it, I guess all I can do is keep working against you in favor of securing our borders, have immigrants come forward, so we know who they are, have them pay a fine, get in the back of the line, and put them on a pathway to citizenship, so more of our jobs wont be shipped out of this country. So our economy wont fail, and our food wont have to be imported. You never know what those leaders in China will put into it to poison us, or maby you are too blinded by racism to care! O, and I also like the fact that I don’t have to pay ten times more for the products and services the Immigrants bring us.

  • Frank
    February 6, 2008 at 10:13 am

    CIF if needed, should be based on our needs and not the immigrant’s needs. There was no study done that if employers increased wages or returned to the wages we had before illegal immgiration entered the picture how many Americans would do many of those jobs. We also should not reward those who have broken our laws. There were many flaws in the first CIR bill and that is why it didn’t pass. Better to pass no bill then to pass a bad bill that would have more serious effects on us in the future then there is today. We need our borders secured first and to make it mandatory for employers to verify their employees legitamacy and to fill those jobs with Americans at a fair wage. Where we can’t find Americans to do certain jobs then of course we should issue work visas for foreign workers. But blanket amnesty is not the answer before all of the above occurs. Those who claim that prices would go way up if not for the illegals are delusional. The employers have just been pocketing the profits and not passing the savings onto the consumer. But even so, if I had to pay more for my goods I would rather do that then not have secure borders and uncontrolled illegal immigration into our country. So many have tunnel vision over the future of our country in the way of population growth and the depletion of our natural resources and the stress on our social infractructures from uncontrolled popualation growth. The CIR bill that didn’t pass would have allowed chain migration by relatives of the migrant to continue endlessly. It was a bad bill overall. There was nothing good in it for Americans, only the migrants. At least our voice forced ICE to crack down on illegal immigration in the workplace and many states are cracking down too in many ways. And our borders are being made more secure but we still have a long ways to go yet.

  • Horace
    February 6, 2008 at 6:03 pm

    I love you Evelyn, every bipolar ugly wart and roll of fat! Marry me, baby!

  • Evelyn
    February 6, 2008 at 10:46 pm

    My what an intelligent reply. I guess as usual you have nothing of substance to debate with.
    I am truly flattered by your proposal of marriage, but I am afraid you would be completely disappointed with my looks. You see….gosh how can I explain this without hurting you…..You see I am not bipolar, and I don’t have any ugly warts or rolls of fat like your mother, and ex wife. You know how men choose wife’s that look like their mothers.
    You know I always wondered why she (your mother) would hate you sooo much to name you such an ugly name as Horace. Now I understand, she didn’t hate you at all, she probably didn’t know you existed, being bipolar and all. No wonder you are such a mess!
    I wish you luck in your search for a wife. I hope you find one just like you wish, one that is just like your mother, ugly warts, rolls of fat, bipolar and all.

  • Frank
    February 7, 2008 at 9:25 am

    Horace, I think “pot,kettle, black” is appropriate here, don’t you? lol

  • Evelyn
    February 7, 2008 at 1:51 pm

    Yes it is, you are the pot, Horace is the kettle, and both of you are full of $hit and suet.

  • Frank
    February 7, 2008 at 4:10 pm

    Horace, do you suppose when you look up the word “hypocrite” in the dictionary (as in who has slung the mud and insults first in here and then complains when they are retaliated against) you would see a picture of “E” as in Ethnocentric Raza?

  • Evelyn
    February 7, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    Why look the word up just look in the mirror. In case you do look it up the picture you will find will be a pot and a kettle exactly like the one I told you about.
    Quit whining, the insults started with warts and rolls of fat. I just defended myself, you got into it with pot and kettle so now take it like a ma…… are a man aren’t you?

  • Frank
    February 8, 2008 at 8:33 am

    Nope, the personal insults toward myself and Horace started long ago and they originated with you. We have merely retaliated against your initial personal attacks on us. Do you also have Aldheimers or do you just like to lie? It is typical of the ethnocentric illegal alien lovers.

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