LatinaLista — There has been (g)rumbling throughout the Latino blogosphere as to what is taking the Obama campaign so long to reach out to the rest of the Latino electorate that aren’t yet completely sold on his candidacy — and to those who are.
(Source: boston.com)
With news that McCain held a Town Hall meeting with some Latinos who were bussed into Chicago last night — though the meeting was held behind closed doors and with carefully screened participants — it seems even McCain is getting a headstart in reaching out to Latinos.
So, where is Obama?
News that some Latina leadership was “displeased” with Obama surfaced after he had been declared the official Democratic nominee and still had not made an effort to contact those Latina congresswomen who had supported Clinton but were ready to meet with Obama.
To these congresswomen waiting for a call that never came was pretty much like being stood up for a date — and one thing no one does is stand up a Latina!
Unfortunately, Obama is learning this the hard way.
Yesterday, it was reported that Obama finally got together with some members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. Only one of the six Latina Congresswomen attended the gathering.
Though Obama’s office called the other Congresswomen to invite them to the gathering, sigh, Latina grudges don’t easily go away, especially with just a phone call.
It probably also didn’t help that this week the Obama campaign announced they had hired Clinton’s former campaign manager, Patti Solis Doyle, as Chief of Staff for the VP candidate. Since Clinton and Solis Doyle haven’t even spoken to one another since Solis Doyle was fired from the campaign, it sends (maybe) the unintentional message that Clinton isn’t in the running for the VP spot which is bound to be a sore point among the Latina leadership waiting for personal outreach from Obama.
On top of his problem outreaching to some Latina congressional leaders, the campaign has been strangely silent with the Latino blogosphere.
Sure, we all get the daily mass emails but by this time in the Clinton campaign, designated staff was reaching out to us bloggers and keeping us updated on Clinton’s agenda. So far, nada from Obama.
Now, of course, the usual critical response would be that we’re all a bunch of whiney babies who want our hands held and our noses wiped by the Obama campaign.
And I admit that on the surface, it certainly looks like that but there’s a difference between having your hand held and being cool enough to be in the “in-group.”
For too long, including Latinos on campaigns or putting us in-the-know just never happened because we were never “cool enough.”
Clinton’s campaign knew how to make us feel cool, and once you experience what everyone else has always had, you don’t want to go back not being appreciated nor unacknowledged.
Obama’s campaign hasn’t done nearly the kind of outreach to the Latino electorate as it needs to secure a win over McCain.
They need to:
1. Make a personal visit to those Latina congresswomen who were ready to get behind him but made to feel like their support didn’t matter.
2. Reach out to the Latino blogosphere and understand that our patience too at being ignored is growing thin. A simple email acknowledging the fact that you know we’re here would be great. As it stands now, we don’t even know if the Obama campaign wants Latino bloggers’ support.
3. Understand that as childish or tiresome our behavior must seem, it’s where Hispanic culture and our mutual upbringing kicks in: Personal contact is a must-have, not a we’ll-see kind of thing. It’s how we interact with one another and regardless of whether or not we’re Mexican-American, Puerto Rican, Cuban-American, etc., it’s that handshake or kiss on the cheek or hug that serves as an integral part of our communication with one another.
It’s what makes our relationships more solid, as well as, our support.
Comment(51)
adriana
Marisa,
You have some good suggestions, but it was reported that Patti Solis Doyle did call Clinton to inform her about her new position. Clinton also congratulated her on the position. Check this out:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/06/patti_solis_doyle_phoned_clint.html
Frank
Well welcome to American culture. We don’t advocate any ethnic group getting special attention. We are all Americans no matter who we are. Get use to it!
Veronica
I was contacted by someone who has been in the loop with the Obama blogosphere and I know they sent him my contact info. I also tried in vain to get his people to take some questions from a mommy blog I use to write with. Oh…and the Latino meeting, no big whoop. All show for the press. No, I wasn’t there, but know someone who was.
laura
What I wonder is, does Obama want to go the Heath Shuler path of winning “white” votes by scapegoating undocumented immigrants and by silently condoning the violence ICE commits against our families?
Is that why his campaign is ignoring Latinos?
The less seen or heard of Latina/os, the better?
I am seriously starting to wonder.
Grandma
I guess I don’t understand exactly what it is Latinos want. And by the way, I’m Hispanic. Why do either of the candidates have to pander to the Latinos? Are they pandering to the Irish or the Asian or any other ethnic group in the US? I don’t think so. So why do they have to single out the Latino group and pander to them? Could it be that what you really want is amnesty for illegals?
laura
I am sorry to have to add one more thought. Where is Latina/o leadership on critical issues? Why are the Latina Congressmembers who are miffed at Obama not asking about issues of importance to us – ICE raids, deaths in detention centers, hate speech against Latina/os? How about health care for everyone?
I don’t care whether Obama calls them or visits them or writes them letters. I want to know what they are asking him about.
Is our leadership so weak or so self-involved that nothing more comes to mind than to worry about what Patti Solis Doyle is doing these days?
El Loco
Now, of course, the usual critical response would be that we’re all a bunch of whiny babies who want our hands held and our noses wiped by the Obama campaign.
Darn right you are whiny babies. The facts are that Obama won the nomination. He’s going to be the Democratic nominee. And McCain has long secured the Republican nomination and will be the nominee. Those are the choices.
If you really believe that there aren’t enough substantive differences between McCain and Obama to make you go out and campaign for Obama – without the need of a kiss, hug and a sana, sana, culito de rana then you have your priorities all messed up.
And I admit that on the surface, it certainly looks like that but there’s a difference between having your hand held and being cool enough to be in the “in-group.”
This is not about some high-school crap about being one of the “in crowd.” This is the future of the U.S. and two drastically distinct views of what to do in the future at a critical time.
During the primaries, I supported Dennis Kucinich because I believed he had the best ideas on how to deal with the key problems of our country. He’s out of the race and Obama is it. To me, Obama is a heck of a lot better choice than McCain all around. That should be your motivation. Not some kind of immature notion that “he didn’t say ‘please.'”
miguel
With the two choices left, we have to choose (again) the lesser of two evils. What is evil to each one of us is going to be in our vote.
What is best for our country in domestic policies and the same with our international dealings with the rest of the world has importance. The future of our children is in the mix.
Breaking out of this self centered spiral of thought has to end or we will be having these discussions until hell freezes over.
What do we give up on each side so that we can move forward for a better life and a better country?
adriana
I also agree w/ Laura. What are the Latinas in Congress doing to address our needs?
And I also agree w/ El Loco in the sense that I don’t care about being in the cool crowd. I care more about the substantive policy issues, which is why I feel that Latinos in Congress need to support Senator Obama. Obama’s agenda is closer to their own than is McCain’s. I do believe that Obama will meet with our leaders… another question is why weren’t the Latinas in the CHC at that meeting w/ the men? Is there some sort of internal fight beyond the public Baca-Sanchez falling out that we don’t know about between the Latinos and Latina Congressional leadership?
Evelyn
Listen to you guys,
The Clock Is Ticking – Latinos wait to be included in Obama’s campaign.
GEEEZZZZ??????
Because Obama knows how Hispanics are being demonized, lambasted, bastardized, and scapegoated by the “Ignorance Breeds Racism” crowd he has dedicated a section of his website to Hispanics and certain issues that affect Hispanics, but not other ethnicity’s.
He doesent have one for Asians, or Native Americans or Germans. Most, but not all Hispanic issues are American issues and those issues are addressed daily.
Racism is a a big issue for Hispanics and also for Obama. Both he and Hispanics are hated by the “Ignorance Breeds Racism” crowd right now. Obama is being tarred and feathered by this crowd to see if anything sticks. The scariest thing for a racist is for the people he hates to be educated. So just imagine what he has had to endure. He even took on Lou Lies the other day speaking out against “Hate Speech” and the lies Lou Lies likes to regurgitate on his show. On several occasions he has stated that the ‘raids’ are ineffective.
Hispanics have been more than included. Instead of watching the clock tick get out there and ask Obama what you can do to help him get elected…..unless you want more of McSame.
Obama on Immigration
Plan for Immigration
“The time to fix our broken immigration system is now… We need stronger enforcement on the border and at the workplace… But for reform to work, we also must respond to what pulls people to America… Where we can reunite families, we should. Where we can bring in more foreign-born workers with the skills our economy needs, we shouldâ€
— Barack Obama, Statement on U.S. Senate Floor, May 23, 2007
At a Glance
Create Secure Borders
Improve Our Immigration System
Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally
Bring People Out of the Shadows
Work with Mexico
Speak your mind and help set the policies that will guide this campaign and change the country.
Present your ideas
Watch the Video
The Problem
Undocumented population is exploding: The number of undocumented immigrants in the country has increased more than 40 percent since 2000. Every year, more than a half-million people come illegally or illegally overstay their visas.
Immigration bureaucracy is broken: The immigration bureaucracy is broken and overwhelmed, forcing legal immigrants to wait years for applications.
Immigration raids are ineffective: Despite a sevenfold increase in recent years, immigration raids only netted 3,600 arrests in 2006 and have placed all the burdens of a broken system onto immigrant families.
Barack Obama’s Plan
Create Secure Borders
Obama wants to preserve the integrity of our borders. He supports additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.
Improve Our Immigration System
Obama believes we must fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.
Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally
Obama will remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.
Bring People Out of the Shadows
Obama supports a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.
Work with Mexico
Obama believes we need to do more to promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.
Barack Obama’s Record
Crack Down on Employers: Obama championed a proposal to create a system so employers can verify that their employees are legally eligible to work in the U.S.
Fix the Bureaucracy: Obama joined Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) to introduce the Citizenship Promotion Act to ensure that immigration application fees are both reasonable and fair. Obama also introduced legislation that passed the Senate to improve the speed and accuracy of FBI background checks.
Respect Families: Obama introduced amendments to put greater emphasis on keeping immigrant families together.
For More Information about Barack’s Plan
Read the Plan
M.S. Bellows, Jr.
Hi, Marisa. I was interested in your Q on today’s Obama conf call, and even more interested in this post that I’m guessing was partly behind it, and thought you might be interested in a piece I wrote on the barrage of questions directed at Robert Gibbs about the campaign’s approach to Latino journalists, voters, and issues. Link’s here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/m.s.-bellows/obama-general-election-ca_b_108335.html
Thanks — and, again, good Q!
Scott
arturo fernandez
“Could it be that what you really want is amnesty for illegals?”
Well, that’s really the only thing I can think of that is of a “Latino” concern, more than anyone else’s concern. Every other policy issue, education, health care, whatever…Obama is addressing. So he’s doing just fine.
Thankfully, it looks like neither candidate will go along with those who want an immigration policy shaped by hatred and fear, like hispanic Grandma does. I think we will get an amnesty bill, thank God.
Frank
Just what are the “Latino” needs that are any different than rest of us Americans?
Frank
arturo, our immigration policies aren’t based on hatred and fear. They are based on fair quotas from different ethnic groups, the numbers we feel we can absorb that we can provide jobs for and assimilate while keeping in mind our populalation growth. Why do you pro-illegals always have to pull the race card?
Who is the actual racist here? It is Hispanics who want this amnesty and gee I wonder why? It is because that the majority of these illegals are ethnically like themselves. Look in the mirror, arturo when you pull your race card.
Irma
As David Brooks said yesterday , Obama is Fast Eddie, if he needs to throw someone/a campaign issue over the bus to win – he will.
Will he do this to Hispanics?
He did throw us a bone ie. Patti Solis-Doyle.
The person ran Clinton’s campaign into the ground. Sounds like a Bush tactic to me -apppointing an incompetent or goosestepper person from a targeted ethnic group in an attempt to demonstrate
“diversity.”
Obama wont appoint anyone worth their salt – they might actually
disagree with him. McCain
will probably do the same.
Dont waste any breath waiting for Obama to pick a smart, independent thinking Latino to any
position of power in his campaign.
Joe Ortiz
Marisa:
The real problem with Obama’s lack of respect and insensitivity to Latinos was evident almost from the beginning. Even though many of our elected Latino representatives joined Hillary’s camp at the beginning of the campaign, Obama failed to contact them to at least show (and or offer) them (especially Latina representatives) what he stands for and what he plans to do about the overall Latino community’s problems. He didnt show that respect then, and he isn’t doing it now (unless it is convenient for him to do so).
Unfortunately for Hillary Clinton, and Latino’s as well, Obama is too caught up in his glorification of himself, and his subsequent coronation, that he can’t see he is fast becoming (and developing) the same traits inherent with most politicians.
I know most of our elected Latino/a’s in Congress, and hopefully they will not kneel and bow down before and individual whose only change we can believe in is that he will be no different than other street hustlers I grew up with in the barrio!
Joe Ortiz
laura
Joe Ortiz said: “I know most of our elected Latino/a’s in Congress, and hopefully they will not kneel and bow down before and individual whose only change we can believe in is that he will be no different than other street hustlers I grew up with in the barrio!”
I hope you are right Joe – that Latina/o Congressmen and -women will stand up for issues of importance to Latina/os, and not stand up for their own aggrandizement.
And I agree – Obama will not do anything for us unless he has to. He is a very intelligent politician. (Another word for that is street hustler.) If he gets more pressure from anti-Latina/o racists, he will follow their demands. If he gets more pressure in defense of Latina/os’ human rights, he will be for human rights.
It is our job to make sure which way he goes.
Miguelito
Hola, si yo tambien preguntarlos 2 a 3 questiones
1. sobre la unicamente solucion para los de finca es HEMP y sobre de decriminalizacion de cualquier cosa personal para uso personal sobre edad 18 y de los tanto gasto para un militar que es ofensivo, no defensivo
tenemos 6 submarinos y satelicos, suficiente
y sin responderme bien
posible el es solo un otro de Bilderburg Group
IMPEACH and hang in public all traitors
soy gringo
pero Vivo El Salvador
Viva El/Frente/Verde[.org]
Senor Pescado, pues
Carmen Leticia
One latina AGAINST obama
Yo me voy con el LATINO
MATT GONZALEZ.
Ese obama no mas no!
Pura mentiras.
I want an honest politician. While that may be an oxymoron, I am sticking to the OTHER HISTORICAL CANDIDATE, A latino
MATT GONZALEZ with Ralph Nader.
Frank
What should a politician be doing for Latinos in particular? I thought all issues effect all Americans and that politicians are supposed to be working for all of us, not just one ethnic group.
arturo fernandez
“Why do you pro-illegals always have to pull the race card?”
Frank, we already we through this. I did not accuse you of being a racist. You may be, but I don’t know that you are, so I didn’t say you and those who think like you are.
“Who is the actual racist here? It is Hispanics who want this amnesty and gee I wonder why? It is because that the majority of these illegals are ethnically like themselves. Look in the mirror, arturo when you pull your race card.”
I am very happy to point out when hispanics are motivated by fear and hatred, like hispanic Gradma. If I was racist or ethnocentric, as you say I am, I wouldn’t have made the point that Gradma is hispanic.
Hispanics for the most part want amnesty for two very simple reasons. One, because many have relatives or friends who are here illegally. Two, because most hispanics started out in this country as illegal immigrants (half of all the people of California did, by the way). It has nothing to do with racism or being enthocentric.
“our immigration policies (are) based…on fair quotas from different ethnic groups…”
As I said several times, our immigration policies need to change to better reflect what Americans (the entrepreneur, but more important the consumer) have made clear they value. It would be great if more Africans and fewer Mexicans immigrated to the U.S. And it would be great if more Mexicans and fewer Mozambiqueans migrated to South Africa. And it would be great if more Guatemalans and fewer Turks migrated to Germany. But it just so happens that Mexico is next to the US, Mozambique is next to South Africa, and Turkey is very close to Germany.
Evelyn
If we dont want McSame in the White House we need to vote with intelligence. A vote for Matt Gonzales is another vote for McSame.
The only 2 canidates who have a chance to win are Obama Or McSame. The GOP is going to try to fool you so Obama will loose. That is the only way they can win.
Josue
Nice article……I just wanted to let you know that LATINOS FOR OBAMA (the DNC Hispanic Caucus-endorsed organization) just relaunched it’s site. Please feel free to stop on by.
We are now recruiting Field Directors in all 50 states and want to hear from you!
http://www.LatinosForObama.com
Frank
arturo, why should the Mexican or other Hispanic relatives of Hispanic citizens of this country get special treatment and not only be forgiven for violating our immigration laws but given a path to citizenship also? The motives of these Hispanic citizens are just plain selfish. When one puts their own ethnic kind above others, they are racists!
It doesn’t matter that Mexico borders our country. The first immigrants came from Europe clear across the ocean. They can and still do that today. Are there no planes and ships to bring them here anymore?
We have quotas from different ethnic groups so that we we don’t have too many of one group that will change the culture, political makeup, language and demographics of this country. It is about the ability to assumilate immigrants into our culture and about fairness to all others who wish to migrate here. What is happening with these millions of Latinos here illegally in our country today is that they are colonizing rather than assimilating.
Latinos shouldn’t be treated special in our immigration policies and quotas just because they have close borders to us.
arturo fernandez
“…and not only be forgiven for violating our immigration laws…”
We have nothing to forgive. They came because we wanted them here. We should have made it easier for them to come in legally. It was our mistake. We need to correct it now.
“…why should the Mexican or other Hispanic relatives of Hispanic citizens of this country get special treatment?”
Hispanics should not get special treatment. Those who are here illegally and have proven of good character should be given legal status regardless of where they came from and who their relatives are. It’s obvious that those who have family members who are here illegally will want amnesty. Are you saying hispanics are racist if they want to keep their families together?
“It doesn’t matter that Mexico borders our country. The first immigrants came from Europe clear across the ocean.”
And should they have been stopped because not enough were Mexicans? Of course not.
“…they are colonizing rather than assimilating.”
Wrong. They’re assimilating. Just like those who were coming at greater numbers proportionally a hundred years ago, they are assimilating. With much easier ways to communicate, with radio, tv, the internet, and with easier ways to travel, Mexicans today are more like Americans than the Italians were like the Americans one hundred years ago. Mexicans are assimilating. More rapidly than previous immigrants.
Frank
arturo, no they came because greedy employers wanted them here, not you average American citizen who wants our immigration laws enforced and the soveirgnty of our borders respected. I have told you this over and over and yet you keep repeating the lie that ALL Americans wanted them here!
What I am saying is that Hispanics or any other American citizen who have relatives in this country illegally are being selfish by expecting our government to bend the rules for them. They deserve no reward for their behavior no matter how long they have been here. How are these relatives working? With fake documents and stolen SS numbers? Those things are felonies. Why should they get a pass on a a felony?
What gets me about these Hispanics who have relatives living here illegally is that many of them are calling their fellow American citizens for wanting our immigration laws enforced and no amnesty, racists! There are some real divided loyalties there. Of course I put my family first also but only up to a point. If they have broken the law, I expect them to pay the price and not to be coddled.
As far as keeping families together. Mexico isn’t that far away. I have many relatives that live back east. Is my family being seperated because we live 2,000 miles away from each other in the true sense of the word? I can go visit them and the same thing applies to Americans visiting relatives in Mexico.
I already told you that we need fair quotas from different ethnic groups so in answer to your question “is it ok to allow more immigration from Europe than Mexico or other Latin countries”, no it isn’t! If we are looking at low skilled wage earners we should be equally fair in that type of immigration for all groups.
No,they aren’t assimilating either. 30 years ago, I never had to press 1 for English or seen ads everywhere in Spanish or be discriminated against for not being able to speak Spanish to get a job. This isn’t due to legal Hispanic citizens in this country, this is due to massive numbers of illegal aliens from Latino countries!
arturo fernandez
“…no they came because greedy employers wanted them here, not you average American citizen…”
No Frank, it was the average American (the entrepreneur, but more important the consumer) that invited them here. Your denying it over and over doesn’t make it untrue.
“What I am saying is that Hispanics or any other American citizen who have relatives in this country illegally are being selfish by expecting our government to bend the rules for them.”
No, what you said was that Hispanics are racists if they want to keep their families together. Apparently, to you only racists care about family. And what you are now saying is that Hispanics, because they’re Hispanic I guess, should be derided for petitioning the government for something they care deeply about.
“What gets me about these Hispanics…is that many of them are calling their fellow American citizens…racists!”
It gets me too. I don’t believe the average American who says they don’t want illegal immigration, but their actions say different, are racists. But as one of Marisa’s recent entries to her blog shows, the more influential personalities in the immigration/illegal-immigration debate are very much compromised. It’s also in Jason Riley’s book, which everyone should read.
“…30 years ago, I never had to press 1 for English”
Businesses are wising up the purchasing power of the spanish-speaking consumer, just one of the many ways illegal immigrants contribute to the economy and are making this country more prosperous. But second generation Hispanics press 1 for English just like you. Even many first generation hispanics, like me, press 1 for English.
“30 years ago, I never had to…be discriminated against for not being able to speak Spanish”
You were not discriminated, you simply did not fit the qualifications for the job. It is much more likely to not get a job if you don’t speak English, and that’s not discrimination. They should learn English, and I recommend you learn Spanish.
“…we should be equally fair in that type of immigration for all groups…”
I think it would be great for all groups of people to spread out all over the globe. But it’s not practical. I think it would be silly for South Africa to worry about taking in an equal number of Mexicans when they’ve got a good supply of workers right next door.
Alex
Frank, you have not changed at all. You are still the bearer of the xenophobic title. You and I and many more agree that people who came here without proper papers, because they could not afford it, should pay a price for coming here that way. hat is what it was proposed by Kennedy and Mc Bush. Pay a fine, prove you are not a dangerous criminal, etc. you know the rest. We also agree the the borders should be secured. But, the millions of people who are ALREADY here, who have made the U.S.A home and worked hard for its development and geeatness should be given the chance to stay. Their children pledge alliance to the U.S. at school, dream of becoming proffesionals that will help make the U.S. even greater, as any other children. We did not mind them growing our food, building our houses, taking care of our children, cleaning after us. Now, because the Republiklans want to look for something that will energize their racist base, their racist agenda is being pushed criminalizing hard work and separating families and forcing many to loose everything thay have worked hard for. I don’t know if I should feel happy that because of my european ancestry, I’m not stopped or questined just for having a dark skin, as some of my friends have. What is called DWB – Driving While Brown. It is Shameful and humillating. I feel ashamed and angry when I see or hear about it. That is why the Hispanic comunity should demand this to be stopped, and make sure that our elected officials look for a humane solution to this. The Kennedy-Mc Bush proposal needed some amendments, but it was a good start. It is a shame that the Rebubliklan Party killed it.
frank, Do you really think that Our Lord approves your attitude towards your neighbors? Look into your heart, in silence and put yourself into their shoes. We all hope that you, and all those xenophobes, change for good and realize that we are all God’s children and should help each other, not destroy each other. Love Your neighbor as you love yourself. Maybe you don’t love yourself enough Frank. God loves you and wants you to love everybody, even the ones who cannot afford to pay for legal papers to work four your wellbeing here.
Irma
The Chicago Sun Times is a joke of a newspaper. Look at what they publish:
Leave Jeremiah Wright alone!
I’m on the third day of a six-day bus tour through Pennsylvania as part of the media contingent covering the Obama campaign, and I have heard only one voter mention the name of Jeremiah Wright. Even then, the young white male dismissed the controversy as irrelevant.
So why is the media still on to this story?
Wright hasn’t said anything about race relations and America’s history than what has been said by a lot of other black preachers (and a few white ones). Yet he is being punished by the media with a high-tech lynching.
Last week, Wright had to cancel two speaking engagements, and when he showed up at St. Sabina to celebrate Maya Angelous’ 80th birthday, the media used his appearance to re-ignite the controversy.
The furor over his remarks should have ended by now.
On the other hand, the media have given Sen. Hillary Clinton a pass for lying about dodging sniper fire in Bosnia.
People who are concerned about Wright can no longer remain silent. At 7:00 p.m. Monday night, friends and supporters of Wright will hold a rally and prayer vigil at Trinity United Church of Christ to show support for their church and their retired pastor.
Posted by Mary Mitchell on March 30, 2008 11:38
Frank
arturo, you want to prove that your regular everyday American citizen “invited” the illegals here? Why would they want that kind of cheap labor competing for their jobs or having their taxes raised to cover the social costs of illegal aliens? Or the uncontrolled population growth that is crowding their schools, jails and hospitals? How does the average American “invite” them here anyway? Do they call them in their home countries and ask them to come. Are they waiting for them at the border? NO, it is the greedy employers that enticed them and our government looked the other way.
What I said is that it is both selfish AND racist for anyone to snub their country’s laws just for their own family’s gains.
The majority of Americans who oppose illegal immigraton are not racists but because you and yours have no viable arguments for your own racism, you call all Americans who want our immigration laws enforced, racists!
Legal Hispanic citizens DO speak English, so there is no need to press 1 for English or for there to be Spanish advertising. How do you explain advertisement’s for jobs to be bi-lingual? You didn’t explain that. Why the hell should I learn Spanish? This is an English speaking country and even Hispanic citizens speak English!
I disagree that the entire planet should blend and no country should have borders. You have not idea the implications of that nonsense. Your agrument that because Mexicans live next door that they should get higher quotas for immigration into our country is laughable to say the least. What has that to do with it? How do you think that immigrants come here from other countries? Ever heard of airplanes and boats?
Frank
Alex, who is this “we” that has allowed illegal aliens to grow our food, build our houses, etc.? It is the greedy employers, that’s who! Except for the Ag industry jobs (but even some Americans do these), Americans do all those jobs but have been undercut by cheap illegal alien labor. The construction industry is a good example of that aka “building our houses”. We should be glad that our construction workers have been put out of work due to cheap illegal alien labor?
I disagree that we should allow those to stay that pay a fine, etc. They need to go home and apply to come back legally. We don’t need to criminalize illegal aliens they have done that all by themselves by entering our country illegally and using fake I.D. and SS numbers which is a felony!
They seperate themselves from their families. They know what our laws are and the consquences of breaking them and they are responsible for their own actions!
What the hell has racism or skin color have to do with enforcing our immigration laws??????? No one is stopped and questioned just because they have brown skin! Just more lies by your side to illicit sympathy for these people. What does xenophobia have to do with it? We have no fear of stangers. For God’s sake there are at least 40 million legal Hispanics in this country and millions of other ethnicities living here. Why does you side demonize and lie so?
Yes, I believe that God would approve of a country looking out for it’s own citizens first and not commit national suicide of it’s own people. I hardly think that he thinks that Americans are racists when we take in more legal immigrants than any other country on the planet.
Frank
Alex, who hired these people to grow our food, etc.? Greedy employers did and they broke our laws by doing so! Your regular law abiding Americans didn’t ask them to come here.
Your average American does all those chores themself except perhaps working the fields. There are visas available to acquire foreign workers to do that kind of work but again the greedy employers find it cheaper to employ illegal aliens instead.
Don’t preach to me about my lack of compassion and your religion pulling BS. When are you going to be compassionate towards your fellow American citizens having to bear the brunt of their social costs, crowded schools, jails and hospitals, loss of jobs, decreases in wages, increases in crime, etc.?
This country takes in more legal immigrants than any other country in the world and you say we lack compassion?
What seperation of families are WE responsible for? Please explain.
Oh sure people are stopped by law enforcement just because they have dark skin, lol. Nice little race card pulling there. Typical!
Knock off the accusations of xenophobia also. It means a fear of strangers. We have no fear of stangers in this country. We are the most diversifed nation on planet earth. More race card pulling. Typical.
We have immigration laws for a reason and that is to control our population growth, protect American jobs and to have fair quotas from many different ethnic groups to be fair and to aid in assimilation. The only racism involved in the immigration issue is on your side, now ours.
arturo fernandez
Frank, I already told you that the homes’ lawns that illegal immigrants tend to are owned by regular Americans, not greedy corporations.
Americans hire illegal immigrants. That tells us that Americans value more having them here, rather than them leave, which is what would happen if American didn’t hire them. You say Americans aren’t racist if they, after hiring them, viciously attacked their character. I say it’s the opposite. Having hired them, it would prove them not racist if they treated the illegal immigrant with respect. That’s pretty much what happens, and you’re obviously opposed to that. That doesn’t make you a racist necessarily; we don’t yet know what motivates your nastiness, at least I don’t in the few exchanges so far.
I didn’t say Mexicans should get higher quotas because they’re Mexicans or because Mexico’s next door (Canada is next door too). More Mexicans should be given amnesty because Americans have hired more illegal immigrants who are Mexican. But things will be different in the future. In the 1970s the average Mexican woman had six children, today it’s two. It won’t be long before Mexicans will have no need to come here. We’ll get our immigrants from elsewhere. And that’s great. Variety is good.
Frank
arturo, there probably are “some” Americans who hire illegals to do their lawns but they don’t represent the majority of Americans! They didn’t call Mexico and invite them over here to do their lawns. They were already here and some Americans just don’t care if they can save a buck.
I don’t know of any Americans who have hired illegals and then viciously attack their character but what has that to do with them violating our immigration laws in the first place or law abiding Americans?
I don’t believe in mistreating illegals, I just believe that we need to enforce our immigration laws and our laws say they shouldn’t be here and are subject to deporation. What nastiness is there in that?
No, Mexicans shouldn’t get a higher quota or an amnesty because “some” greedy Americans hired them. You completely leave out of the equasion that the majority rules in this country and the majority of Americans are law abiding and don’t hire illegals knowingly. What you are saying is that they should be allowed to stay because there are “some” Americans who are greedy and are breaking our labor and immigration policies who do hire them. You aren’t making any sense here. What about the majority of Americans and their feelings? What about our laws?
Liquidmicro
“Frank, I already told you that the homes’ lawns that illegal immigrants tend to are owned by regular Americans, not greedy corporations.”
Yes, but you make no mention that they work for a Landscape Owner who is gaming the system with unfair competition. The owner sells the job (owner is an American Citizen, usually white, so the average citizen home owner doesn’t think twice that he is hiring “Illegal Immigrants”. The homeowner is assuming the workers are legal and that the Landscape Owner is playing by the rules since his bid is in conjunction with most others. In most cases, as shown with all the company raids, the “Illegal Immigrant” is being grossly underpaid, and usually in cash, while the small business owner walks away with a very large profit)
There are a few self employed assumed “Illegal Immigrants” mowing lawns, they are paid in cash and are also gaming the system. There are a small minority of home owners that hire this type of company, usually because they are looking for the cheapest possible price. Usually once hired and found to have substandard work they are never hired again.
There character is attacked mostly for doing sub-standard work, taking shortcuts and applying band-aids to try to fix a problem. I repair numerous jobs monthly that have been started and never finished or completed correctly by unlicensed contractors and by those that are licensed that use what could only be assumed to be “Illegal Immigrants”.
The business owner in this model is exploiting the worker, and I believe as you that the owner should treat the worker with respect, however, your blaming the home owner is mis-placed when the blame should go squarely on the employer of the business here. The home owner is only clambering about poor workmanship for what they paid for, directed at both the owner of the company and the workers themselves.
arturo fernandez
“…there probably are “some” Americans…”
That’s a lot of “some”, enough to equal about ten million people that now should be given amnesty. If it was more than “some”, we’d be talking about more than 10 million. But we’re not. We’re talking about 10 million, the ones that Americans have accepted to be part of the great American experiment we call capitalism. So while America and Americans have accepted these people into their community, some (one of them named Frank) viciously attacks their character. It doesn’t mean they’re racist necessarily, we really don’t know what motivates this viciousness.
arturo fernandez
“…but what has that to do with them violating our immigration laws in the first place…?”
“I just believe that we need to enforce our immigration laws…”
“What about our laws?”
Our laws need to change, to better reflect our values. I could try to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that when you go to the market it doesn’t occur to you (who has illegal immigration always on your mind) that in looking for the lowest price of lets say grapes, that thing you’re doing (looking for the lowest price) has nothing to do with who gets hired to pick those grapes. So to not say you viciously attack the character of the people you do your part to keep here, I would have to say you’re stupid. I don’t want to call you stupid.
Frank
arturo, how many times do I have to repeat to you that the majority of Americans are not excepting of millions of illegal aliens being in our communities?
I don’t know what vicious attacks you are talking about. It is a fact that some do commit crimes other than violating our immigration laws. As far as their character goes, I couldn’t give a rat’s behind about that, good or bad. It is our laws that I care about.
Our immigration laws reflect our needs for foreign labor in controlled numbers and in quotas from different ethnic groups to be fair and to aid in assimilation. They reflect our need to control our population growth also. They already reflect our good values.
What you continue to not understand, and liquid touched on it in the above post, is that for the most part the employers of illegals just pocket the profit of cheap illegal labor. They don’t pass those savings on to us. They do pass their social costs on to us though. The .50 tomato becomes a $1.00 tomato in reality.
You also fail to understand what unconrolled population growth in this manner does in terms of overcrowded schools, jails and hospitals, our environment, depletion of our natural resouces, increased housing and energy prices, gridlock on our highways and the need to build more and more schools, hospitals and roads. I am only touching the tip of the iceberg here.
In summation:
How many times have I told you that WE HAVE NOT ACCEPTED THESE INTERLOPERS INTO OUR COMMUNITY!!!! They have BARGED THEMSELVES IN and unscrupulous employers have taken advantage of the situation. But, the average American who does not hire illegals has not welcomed them!! These Americans are paying higher taxes to build more schools to educated the many, many children of a low-paid, low educated work force. These low paid workers do not even begin to pay for their childrens’ educations, let alone the WIC, food stamps, Section 8 housing, health care, and other benefits which they use up for their U.S.-born children! (reinterpreting the 14th amendment to its original intent would put a stop to this).
American citizens in areas overwhelmed by illegals have been screaming about this for years, but nobody would listen. It wasn’t until this scourge spread all through the country and more people got involved in the fight against it that the tide started to turn against these illegals and their enablers, which includes the greedy business people.
This business of granting amnesty every time our government fails to enforce our immigration laws has got to stop sometime and somewhere. The time is NOW and the place is HERE! If you ask me it is you and your ilk who are “viciously” attacking their fellow Americans for wanting to stop illegal immigration. Yet ONE MORE amnesty will only lead to further illegal immigration.
When this country once again finds itself at some point in the future, let’s say 15 years or so, with another 20 million or so illegals, are you and your ilk once again going to demand yet another amnesty for them? When does it stop, Arturo?? Do you believe that this country has the right to retain its sovereignty like Mexico or any other country does?? And since you are a big fan of Capitalism: Most of the illegals who become citizens will vote for a Democratic Socialist government. How do you feel that will affect the long-term economic prospects of this country? Of course, you will probably deny it, but Latinos by huge margins vote Democratic, with the only exception being the Cuban-American population.
arturo fernandez
it should be,
“…it doesn’t occur to you…that…that thing you’re doing has something to do…”
it’s “something”, not “nothing”.
arturo fernandez
“The homeowner is assuming the workers are legal…”
You’ve got to be kidding. The owner knows their gardner is illegal, like s/he knows the woman who cleans her house once a week for eighty bucks and that s/he never asked to see her papers, but was recommended by her neighbor, is illegal. You think Americans are that stupid?
arturo fernandez
“…Usually once hired and found to have substandard work they are never hired again.”
Yet, they keep mowing laws, every day here in my Southern California middle-class neighborhood, almost every house, a great majority illegal immigrants, week after week. The owners are happy with their illegal immigrant labor.
“…your blaming the home owner is mis-placed…”
I’m not. I respect the homeowner. I blame those, like you, who viciously attack the illegal immigrant who Americans have decided is good to keep here by giving them a job mowing their laws, cleaning their homes and raising their children.
Evelyn
NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOoooooo dont call him stupid!
Call him blinded, blinded by racism, that’s what keeps him from reflecting on the stupidity of what he is saying.
arturo fernandez
Liquidmicro, it is possible that you’re fixing problems caused by substandard work done by workers who are illegal immigrants. As many are recent arrivals they’re probably inexperienced. In this case work ethic can only go so far. Homeowners should do their homework, that’s for sure, when hiring someone for a major project (which mowing the lawn once a week is not). It is also possible, however, that the problems you’re fixing are caused by Americans who lack work ethic, are exconvicts, drugs addicts, are lazy, or whatever problems they have that kept them from getting a good education. Many in construction are people like that, you should know. You’re assuming way too much when you say you’re fixing problems caused “by unlicensed contractors and by those that are licensed that use what could only be assumed to be “Illegal Immigrants”.”
So you’re fixing the substandard work of those who don’t know what they’re doing, some who are here illegally and some very legally. It is also possible (it’s actually the case, I know some) that many who’s work you would respect, learned the trade through hard work and commitment, their illegal status not getting in the way. Some of these are still illegal immigrants, though you wouldn’t know it, and some are now legal residents or citizens but started out as illegal immigrants. Half of Californians started out as illegal immigrants. California is today the eight largest economy in the world.
Liquidmicro
(Edited by Latina Lista administrator)
Evelyn, comprehend what Arturo said, “You think Americans are that stupid?” What I think is that ‘some Americans” are stupid, look at Evelyn, the perfect example.
Arturo, you are speaking of an individual operating on his own behalf, I am talking of personnel of a Landscape Company which does installations and maintenance for Commercial and Residential, for which if they are hired by the company/working for the company, then they can only be assumed to be “Illegal”.
This paragraph is pretty much correct.
“So you’re fixing the substandard work of those who don’t know what they’re doing, some who are here illegally and some very legally. It is also possible (it’s actually the case, I know some) that many who’s work you would respect, learned the trade through hard work and commitment, their illegal status not getting in the way. Some of these are still illegal immigrants, though you wouldn’t know it, and some are now legal residents or citizens but started out as illegal immigrants. Half of Californians started out as illegal immigrants. California is today the eight largest economy in the world.”
“You’re assuming way too much when you say you’re fixing problems caused “by unlicensed contractors and by those that are licensed that use what could only be assumed to be “Illegal Immigrants”.””
There are no assumptions, I research each and every company I have to go back to repair and/or complete. I also turn them into City/County/State Licensing Departments. I work closely with these departments and have for many years. Many a company owner has been put out of business and/or sued in small claims court for incompletion of work. Bonds on those that are licensed contractors are paid out in some cases. In a few cases the Business Owner has seen jail time.
“Half of Californians started out as illegal immigrants. California is today the eight largest economy in the world.”
Is that also why California is $16 Billion dollars over budget?!
arturo fernandez
I’ll make a correction. Half of immigrants in California were once illegal immigrants. Of course, many US citizen Californians have parents who were once illegal immigrants.
arturo fernandez
“I don’t know what vicious attacks you are talking about.”
The past several years we’ve seen a vicious campaign from your side to attack the character of illegal immigrants. It’s been all over talk radio and on countless Right Wing blogs. It’s been ugly, and it’s been vicious, and it’s been everywhere conservatives like to gather. You can’t deny that it’s how your side has been able to define this issue. “Illegals” used as a noun dehumanizes them, and that quickly turns to “criminals”, “scum”, etc. It’s everywhere. Listen to talk radio when the issue is illegal immigration (thank God it’s less frequent now). It’s ugly to the level of being fascist.
“They don’t pass those savings on to us. They do pass their social costs on to us though. The .50 tomato becomes a $1.00 tomato in reality.”
It was Horace, or maybe it was you, who recently linked to a National Review article making such claims. It is shown to be useless by Jason Riley in his book, Let Them In. Read Riley’s book. Educate yourself.
“How many times have I told you that WE HAVE NOT ACCEPTED THESE INTERLOPERS INTO OUR COMMUNITY!!!!”
Not only have we accepted them in, our very actions have brought them in (see my previous comment to you, about you, low prices, and grapes). You deny participation because you want to define the act as being oh-so horrendous that only the most horrendous (criminals, scum, drug dealers, child rapists, greedy corporations, etc) would take part in it.
Frank
Arturo, you keep repeating over and over that “we” have accepted these illegal aliens into our country. “We” does not include the majority of Americans. How many times do I have to tell you that? Law abiding Americans do not “knowlingly” participate in hiring or assisting illegals to remain here. That is a flat out lie!
Another lie is you stating that we consider illegally entering our border as “horrendous.” We do not, it is just unacceptable according to our laws. We do not say that they ALL commit other crimes that are “horrendous” either. Some do, some don’t!
It was liquidmicro that dispelled Riley’s book and gave you something more credible to read about illegal immigration. I believe he called Riley a far leftist.
So, it seems that you are accusing ME of being vicious based on what OTHERS have said on talk shows and various other venues? LOL! Give me a break! When you accuse someone of being vicious, you ought to at least be able to give detailed examples of things THEY THEMSELVES have said. I have seen some really vicious and racist things said on the pro-illegal side, also. Even to the point of threatening ethnic/racial genocide on whites. But, I would hardly accuse YOU of being vicious based on the statements of OTHERS. Nice try, Arturo!
Arturo, you conveniently ignored THIS question: And since you are a big fan of Capitalism: Most of the illegals who become citizens will vote for a Democratic Socialist government. How do you feel that will affect the long-term economic prospects of this country? Of course, you will probably deny it, but Latinos by huge margins vote Democratic, with the only exception being the Cuban-American population.
Arturo, you have a habit of ignoring questions for which you have no adequate answer or for which the answers would not fit your open borders, globalist agenda.
Pointing out the harsh realities of the effects which this uncontrolled, illegal immigrtion has had on our country and communities all across this nation is not vicious. And we will NOT be muzzled because the Arturos of the world want to sweep these realities under the rug. The rhetoric gets heated on both sides. Like I said, the pro-illegals radicals are just as guilty of it as the antis are. It’s just that the majority of people in the country are anti-illegal and their voices are finally being heard, despite the best efforts of self-interested ethnocentric groups and business lobbyists to shut us up.
arturo fernandez
Happy Independence Day!
Viva the U S of A!
arturo fernandez
Frank,
” ‘We’ does not include the majority of Americans”
” Law abiding Americans do not ‘knowlingly’ participate in hiring or assisting illegals to remain here ”
It is not just a majority who participates, it’s really everyone. If you seek out low prices, with illegal immigrants you’re getting that. You deny participation because your side has engaged in a vicious campaign to malign those who take part in it. You guys say that illegal immigrants “steal” jobs from Americans. The truth is that everywhere illegal immigrants have gone unemployment has dropped and communities have prospered. “Steal” is a vicious attack, and that it’s a lie is a vicious attack. The adjective “illegal” has been turned to a noun to insult their person as completely as possible. Though I wish they wouldn’t, when defenders of illegal immigrants attack back (by calling you racist or whatever)…well, they’re attacking back.
“It was liquidmicro that dispelled Riley’s book…”
No, he didn’t.
“I believe he called Riley a far leftist.
He didn’t. Jason Riley is on the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal. A “leftist” he’s not, a “far leftist” much less.
“Arturo, you conveniently ignored THIS question:…Capitalism…Democratic Socialist…”
You mean I ignore that anti-illegal-immigrant fanatics have turned over the Hispanics, who are social conservative Catholics and a growing number Evangelicals, to the Democratic Party for a very long time? How do I feel about it? It doesn’t matter. Amnesty is the right thing to do, period. I believe that people should be respected as people, not for their political convenience. I disagree with you there.
Liquidmicro,
You said “There are no assumptions. I research each and every company.” But you had just said “…that use what could only be assumed…”
Also, I don’t deny what you’re describing exists, but it has to be a very small portion of the many billions of dollars in contracts. A very large portion of construction work is being done by illegal immigrants (or once-illegal immigrant, now legal). Houses aren’t falling right and left.
Liquidmicro
“Houses aren’t falling right and left.”
They don’t need to ‘fall’ to be repaired and/or completed correctly. You are making a mountain out of an ant hill by using such a catastrophic word. Didn’t you just lecture/criticize Frank on the use of these types of propagandist words? Should I now attack you? Word choice is crucial to civil debate, not exacerbating the description of the point to confound the actual statement.
“You said “There are no assumptions. I research each and every company.” But you had just said “…that use what could only be assumed…””
You are confusing the no assumptions of the companies (unlicensed contractors), with that of the assumed status of there workers.
Frank
arturo, how many times do I have to tell you that the greedy employers are pocketing the profit from cheap illegal labor? They aren’t passing any savings on to us!!! With or without illegal labor companies still try to stay competitive in selling their goods. Some sell in bulk so they can sell things cheaper to the consumer. Your claim that cheaper prices and searching for cheaper prices is aiding and abetting illegal aliens knowlingly is just plain ignorant.
You are in deep denial if you don’t think that employers have hired illegal aliens over Americans at lower wages. That is what is meant by “stealing jobs.” I know for a FACT that it happens all the time in the construction industry. Liquid can attest to that also since he is in the contruction industry himself. You can’t call the other side racists or vicious when statements are made on FACTS! That isn’t a FAIR attack back!
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