LatinaLista — Not even the announcement of Sen. Joe Biden as Barack Obama’s running mate could minimize the long shadow cast by Hillary Clinton over the Democratic National Convention.
Hillary Clinton (in yellow) appears at the Hispanic Caucus meeting on the first day of the Democratic National Convention in Denver.
(Source: NMFBIHOP)
With news reports that her supporters are now angry that Obama didn’t choose her as his VP and that they are even more fueled to vote for McCain over Obama is a sad commentary on loyalty run amuck.
The unfortunate thing is that Hillary is only prolonging her swan song — to the point that her message teeters on “Don’t do as I say, do as I feel.”
The dilemma for the Democratic campaign is how many will follow Hillary’s heart?
Latina Lista will be the first to say that this election has a lot to be thankful for when it comes to Hillary Clinton’s involvement in the Democratic primary. Her example of what a woman can do when it comes to running for the highest office in the land sets the bar for intelligence, grace and passion while battling an old boy network.
That she was able to win over so many Latino voters is no small feat either. She surpassed gender roadblocks that are still being thrown at Latina politicians and political wannabes. Also, that she has made it a public point to personally reach out to Latinos endears her even more to the Latino electorate that supported her — and which makes it doubly harder for Latinos to accurately decipher the message she’s trying to deliver.
After all, while Latinos like to say we look at the facts and evaluate a candidate’s electability based on their qualifications and experiences, nine times out of ten, votes are cast on how we “feel” about that person or how we perceive that candidate’s message.
An Associated Press report reveals that a deal being brokered between Obama and Clinton will let Clinton bask in the last few rays of shining support she enjoys by giving her some votes in the roll call for the presidential nomination.
Democratic officials involved in the negotiations said Monday the idea is that at the start of the state-by-state vote for the presidential nomination Wednesday night, delegates would cast their votes for Clinton or Obama.
But the voting would be cut off after a couple of states, the officials said, perhaps ending with New York, when Clinton herself would call for unanimous backing for Obama from the convention floor. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity while the deal was being finalized.
Clinton said she has told her delegates she will vote for Obama, but she would not instruct them how to vote.
While this may fulfill the as-of-yet elusive dream of Clinton to hear her name being called on the convention floor, it doesn’t help the situation among those voters who may get confused as to whether or not Clinton is still in the race. Not even the argument that “people are smarter than that” can offset the unavoidable confusion that this kind of stunt will most likely contribute in the minds of those voters, limited English Latino voters and elderly voters, who aren’t really sold on Obama in the first place.
To prove this point, Latina Lista friend and fellow blogger New Mexico FBIHOP, who is attending the Democratic convention in Denver, reports that Hillary made an appearance at the Hispanic Caucus meeting. Here, in an arena with highly-educated and informed Latinos, it was necessary to publicize the theme of “Unity” and for everyone to reiterate the message to vote for Barack.
ln fact, Hillary couldn’t say it enough:
Clinton began, “Now we come together here in Denver, the Mile High City, to come together and support the best President of the United States — Barack Obama.”
She also addressed, obliquely, the “PUMAs” who are considering voting for McCain instead of Sen. Obama.
“I’m asking all of you who supported me, and I’m eternally grateful, to work as hard for Barack Obama as you did for me,” again to cheers from the crowd.
We can only hope that Hillary’s message is taken to heart by all voters, especially on the heels of news that one of the most infamous Republican congressmen who had to resign from Congress in disgrace for money laundering, is about to be a free man.
Money-laundering charges against former U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay and two indicted co-conspirators may be dismissed because the 2002 campaign finance case involved checks and not cash, a lawyer for DeLay said Sunday night.
“We win,” said Dick DeGuerin, DeLay’s lawyer, “because there’s nothing but checks in the case.”
It is time for real change in Washington and we can’t afford to let that goal get muddled by egos or swan songs that won’t take a final curtain call.
Comment(61)
laura
Marisa, you say:
“It is time for real change in Washington and we can’t afford to let that goal get muddled by egos or swan songs that won’t take a final curtain call.”
No one could have said it better. It is time for Hillary Clinton supporters to stop and think about whether they want another 4 years of Bush-style economics, Bush-style warmongering, and Bush-style immigration raids. That is what John McCain stands for.
It is hard to believe people aren’t hurting enough already after 8 years of Bush rule, that they would give even a single thought to voting for the Republican.
Thomas
Oh yeah we want Obama who has ties with domestic terrorism. No experience and want to give 800 billion of our wealth to the UN in that global poverty scam. Money like that could fix our bridges and dams. We shouldn’t be dying for the UN or for any other country. They have problems they should sort it out themselves. Plus what good has the UN done besides over seeing genocide and child rape from their own peacekeepers. I don’t want to see another black hawk down. I don’t want to see another Kosovo. We need to get back to Washington foreign policy and not have ourselves involve in world affairs. We need to secure the border and get rid of the 14th admendment. Time for Americans to look after ourselves for once.
Irma
Marisa,
First and foremost , I am an American who cares deeply about her country.
And that is why I cannot vote for
Barak Obama. Let me make a simple analogy – brain surgery cannot be left to a medical student even if the chief of surgery is standing next to him. Joe
Biden is not the candidate for President
Barak Obama is.
Barak Obama has no executive experience at the state or level.
Barak Obama has federal experience
– he spent most of his time in the Senate away campaigning for President.
I am sad that the more qualified candidates in the Democratic party
(Biden, Dodd , Clinton) did not get the
nomination.
I honestly believe that voting for a
Democratic Congress is the answer.
I can live with 4 years of John McCain –
will I vote for him ? I dont know, but for the first time in my life I will be listening to what the Republican
candidate has to say.
I cant vote for Barak Obama- a baby should not be President of the United
States.
John McCain is not George Bush.
I am not so stupid as to believe that
particular Obama koolaid.
Vote for a Democratic Congress –
Marisa Treviño
Irma, I don’t understand your logic. Simply based on age, Obama is not qualified in your opinion? I think we have to remember that one of the most important qualities of any candidate, regardless of age, is the ability to listen to those around her/him and cull the collective wisdom that they bring to the table. A young person is much more prone to do that than someone who is so set in their ways, due to age or arrogance, that they dismiss any other way of thinking than their own. Sadly, we’ve seen it with the Bush Administration. If you think this is something that is hard to see for ourselves, there’s a clear litmus test for it. Look at how the candidates interact with the press at all times. It’s one thing to get tired of the press for asking incessant questions but they ask on OUR behalf. If a candidate is constantly irritated with the press and flippant and dismissive, chances are that is a candidate who doesn’t feel he/she owes an explanation for their actions to anyone. Yet, a candidate who takes the time to talk and explain and not be dismissive ranks far higher in a quality that every leader should have — remembering they are there to serve the people and with that territory comes the obligation to answer to the public.
EYES OF TEXAS
Obama talks in vague terminology and never explains anything. He makes generalized statements like “I’m going to put Americans back to work again by creating more jobs” Sounds like a good plan, but how, what’s it going to cost, how will everyone be included? He is a media created fraud with a shady background and is being handled by people that have not been exposed to the public, as of yet. Once we see who his puppeteers are, the nation will not think so highly of him. Obama is a junior Senator with 2 years experience and no real accomplishments at a federal level. Just because he can pull the wool over the eyes of the simple minded with all the hope and change BS doesn’t qualify him to be Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military. We are living in dangerous times and need someone with the experience and nerves to stand up for Americans if military actions are required in the defense of our country. Obama is not that man and I personally don’t believe that the majority of Americans trust him to be 100% behind what is best for our country. He will rip away the fabric that has kept this nation strong and allow our enemies to see a weakened America ripe for the taking. For the love of America, give us strong leadership, experienced leadership and the wisdom to not put a light-weight in control of our destiny.
As for someone being arrogant, no politician in recent history has displayed the extreme level of arrogance that the fraud Obama has.
IRMA
I said nothing about age. Bill Clinton was younger as presidential candidate thanBarak Obama is now. Obama
has no experience as a LEADER.
He was not a governor or a mayor and his time in the Senate has been shorter than a blink.
I have looked very hard at Obama’s life story looking for evidence of self less ness.
I dont see it . His whole life was about
promoting himself, creating essentially
a myth about himself. I see no evidence of
a “listener” in Barak Obama. He knows best – always, always , always. In the Senate, Barak Obama deliberately chose not to befriend anyone. He was a loner.
I doubt that with Obama’s ego , that he will be content when Biden the perennial candidate for President begins to try to steal the show. The Democrats have messed it up again – even if Obama gets
elected, it will be for one term.
You say that a leader should serve the public. This is something Obama hasnt done. There hasnt been time to do that. How can you be the Senator for Illinois, if you spend all your time running for President ?
I will not vote for John McCain. But he
HAS served his country, as a soldier
rotting away in a prison for 5 years –
as a senator for over 2 decades.
He is qualified to be President of the United States, but I dont happen to
agree with many of his policies.
Now, all I have to do is decide is whether
my views are more important that what my country needs right now.
Thomas
I hate the democratic congress. A 100 million dollars for a museum not being built in our country but in Poland. Goes on a 5 week Vacation when the American people are suffering. Shuts down the oposition voices when both sides must be listen to in the house. Is it a wonder they have a single didget approval rating. Vote independent. Both parties are like the blood and the cripes.
Evelyn
Congratulations to all the RACISTS on this forum.
You have won!!!
I am being censored and you are going to be allowed to keep spewing your hate.
Who said whining will get you nowhere. Oh, that’s right I did.
Well I was wrong. Marisa has decided to take your side and that is fine as it is her Forum.
I thought she would be impartial but I was wrong.
She gave in just like congress did.
Just remember after CIR is passed that you might have won this battle but you will lose the war.
There are plenty of racist forums where one is not allowed to expose racism.
Now this one will be one more.
I am leaving because there is no reason to post here anymore.
The forum has been handed to you on a silver platter. Too bad!
I think maybe Marisa wont print this. Oh well…..
Alessandra
Irma, it will only be a positive for you to listen to what the “other side” has to say.
It is my honest opinion that neither Republicans or Democrats have the right answers. Especially now, Democrats want a huge, nanny state government apparatus which in no way comports with the vision our founding fathers had for this nation.
Western Europe has followed this model with pretty much disasterous results; they are now in the process of electing conservative governments. They are going bankrupt because they have no more funding for their out of control social programs, extremely low productivity (35 hour or less work weeks), and high unemployment, especially amongst their youth. And these a mostly small-population countries where Socialistic policies are easier to implement.
Then many of the Republicans are locked into the religion of “free trade,” globalization, outsourcing. They measure how well the country is doing by the GDP and not by the quality of life of individual Americans.
Each side makes some good points and has bad points IMO. Granted I am only 20-something so I’m not speaking from the wisdom of the ages. But, it just seems very wise to listen to what others have to say, especially if you haven’t done so before.
My parents, grandparents, great-grandparents were dyed-in-the-wool Dems. I have decided to pursue a more independent route; I choose to think for myself, do a lot of reading, educate myself on various sides of an issue (there is often more than one way to look at something).
Good luck.
Frank
Thank you Marisa, for finally deciding to make sure that only civil debate occurs in your blog. There is no need for name calling and false accusations of others when debating the important issues facing our nation today. It does nothing but divide us rather than unite us. You have earned my respect as a human and as a Hispanic citizen.
laura
Dear Alessandra, Western Europe actually is looking pretty good. They have a much lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy, better internet connectivity, and are even on average growing significantly taller than we!
I suggest you go into a big station in the US, let’s say Penn Station in New York City, and then go into a big station anywhere in Western Europe. The difference between grunge here and gleaming floors and doors there is like night and day!
As for bankrupt – there is not a single country in Western Europe as bankrupt as the United States after decades of Republican rule. That goes both for the budgets at the national levels, and for the individual citizens. US citizens are crazy deep in debt. You wouldn’t catch the French or the Germans in the kind of debt we are in.
My friend – those people know that their taxes are there to actually pay teacher’s salaries, school buildings, hospitals, nurses, bridges and parks. Here our taxes are shunted directly into the pockets of Bush’s and Cheney’s friends – at Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, Exxon – you name them.
So you want 4 more years of this.
laura
Querida Evelyn, calmate. No se que paso. But generally I think we should never take anything very personally. Generally most things are not intended personally.
Nosostras te queremos y te necesitamos. Como necesitamos a todos que quieren justicia.
Texano78704
Alessandra, I wonder why you would say the Democratic Party wants a “huge, nanny state government.†I wonder if you could tell us which political party favors controlling a woman’s right to choose what do with her body. Or perhaps which wants to tell us who we should or should not share our lives with. Or even may tell us which party in recent years was instrumental in passing the largest expansion of government entitlements, complete with no-bid purchasing.
Political philosophers of the Age of Enlightenment inspired the Founding Fathers profoundly. Nowhere is that more evident than in Thomas Jefferson’s opening paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence. His sentences could have easily been taken from the works of John Locke and Jean Jacques Rousseau. They were advocates of a theory that a government and its people are in fact entered into a social contract with one another. Maybe that libertarian propaganda about nanny governments sounds good to you, but a trip to Wikipedia may give you a more balanced view.
John “Maverick†McCain supported BushCo policies 95% of the time (and the rest of the Republicans in Congress supported him 100%). Why would we need another four years of poor job creation, massive budget deficits, a failed foreign policy, and poor economic growth?
If the European Union is doing as bad as you say, how is It that the Euro has risen in value over the last seven and half years as compared to the US Dollar? The BushCo tax cuts, tax cuts that mainly benefitted the wealthy in country, has resulted in a $2.5 trillion increase in public debt. And the shifting of the tax burden down to the middle class make this a wealth transfer of $2.5 trillion to the wealthy. McInsane says we need to give the rich even more money without ever explaining how he is going to pay for BushCo’s immoral war of aggression.
I do not fault you for wanting to be an independent thinker, but it does not take a lot of thought or research to see that Republican Party economic policies got us where we are today, on the verge of economic collapse, and that they have a long history of doing the same. Under the eight-year term of Bill Clinton, the Stock Market increased in value by about 320%. If Bush is lucky, the Market might see 20% growth.
The best you will ever get from Republicans in 2008 is an argument over “image politics.†Image does not put food on the table, pay the doctor bill, or keep you safe.
Marisa Treviño
Evelyn and all, sorry I didn’t respond to your post sooner but have only had time to post your comments. First, I have not handed Latina Lista over to those nativists or racists. Nor do I feel I am censoring you as you believe.
What I am advocating is a change in vocabulary on both sides of the issue in how we frame this debate going onward. Evelyn, I know you are a passionate supporter and defender, and I appreciate that very much, believe me I do. But there comes a time when we do have to move on and change the delivery, but keep the same message — me entiendes?
As you’ve seen from Frank’s post, he’s let out a secret that he’s kept close to his chest – he’s Hispanic. His revelation doesn’t change anything other than makes the debate a tad more interesting on this forum.
At any rate, Evelyn, I wish you would reconsider leaving Latina LIsta. I think from here on out, as these immigration raids increase, your added voice against them will serve a valuable service in speaking for migrant’s rights.
Marisa
Irma
John McCain voted with Bush
95^ of the time. Barak Obama
has almost no Senate voting record. How can you vote for someone when you dont know what they actually believe in?
Barak Obama went to Berlin and made a speech about the people
of the world. A key point of the speech was a recitation of countries of the world. He mentioned all of Europe, Kenya, Zimabawe, South Africa.
Guess what he “forgot”
Central America, Mexico and all the countries of South America. Wow- he remembers
Zimbawe and he cant remember
Mexico? Latinos are not
immportant to him – THINK
before you vote for him.
You dont have to vote for President. Vote for a
Democratic Congress but dont vote for a man who cant even
remember Latinos.
Frank
Marisa, if you feel that myself and others in here who support our immigration laws are racists and nativists then my purpose in here is gone.
You can invite Evelyn back and she can continue to spew her hatred of the white race and calling anyone who doesn’t agree with her immigration views, a racist.
Adios!
Alessandra
Laura, I believe we have only had eight years of Republicans. Before that we had eight years of Clinton. Republicans took the WH back in the mid-90s, but lost it in the 2006. Before the mid-90s, Democrats held the WH for forty years or so (from my reading).
My point is that neither party has been effective in solving this country’s most pressing problems. Neither side has done anything about the energy situation; although from my reading, it should have been apparent back in the 70s that we needed to make changes. Neither side was serious about solving the immigration situation either. There are other areas that both parties have neglected also.
IMHO until we stop looking at things from a partisan perspective and start searching for pragmatic solutions to problems, we are going to continue to follow in the same pattern.
I disagree with you on Europe. I have family there and so have spent a great deal of time there. Their standard of living is not as high as ours. They are having a great deal of trouble maintaining their vast social services; remember also that these are very small population countries compared to the U.S. Labor laws are very stringent there. Not too long ago French youth rioted in the streets protesting the fact that the government wanted to pass a new law to make it easier to fire incompetent workers. You see employers were not hiring young, untested workers because once they were hired, it was almost impossible to fire them if they were not good employees. Therefore, employers just were not hiring young (under 26) untested workers. The new law would have loosened that up a bit and encouraged employers to take a chance on inexperienced young workers. Years of Socialism has fostered a rather blase work ethic there, especially amongst the young and unemployment for youth was in the double digits (somewhere around 16% I believe). They rioted for days over this slight change in the labor law.
That’s not to say that they are all wrong and that we can not learn from them in certain areas. For example, France gets about 80% of its electricity from atomic energy.
We do have a lot of problems with our deficit and trade imbalances which I mentioned in my post. We need “fair trade.” This is an area in which I very much disagree with Republicans.
Bush has been an out-of-control spender and that seems to be a really sore spot among most conservatives. They really don’t like him for that. But, there is a difference between neo-cons and paleo-cons. The neo-cons tend to favor more international intervention, more spending and the paleo are more isolationist and favor very small government and low taxes.
Dems have always been the party of entitlements. That’s why most poor immigrants (like my ancestors were) sign up for the Dems when they first come here. They believe in using the power of the government to solve problems; whereas, Republicans favor using the private sector. In addition, the extreme liberals are more like the Democratic Socialists of Western Europe than traditional Democrats. JFK today would probably be considered a Republican by them.
I personally do not believe that taking money away from people who have worked hard to earn it and redistributing it in the form of government entitlements/programs (Socialistic/Marxist principles) is what this country was founded to be. That’s just my opinion. $250,000 might sound like a lot, but it really would be a small/medium-sized business. Taking away the salaries of employees and other expenses and overhead, it really isn’t as much as it sounds. Success and achievement should not be punished. That just discourages innovation and people taking risks which in the long run slows down an economy.
OTOH, corporate welfare, fraud, exploitation is no good either. That’s why you have to keep an eye on both sides.
I personally think we need a third party, but I don’t know when that will be feasible.
Irma
Marisa,
The other Latin blogs are talking about the fact that the Obama Latin Delegation
is maybe not Latin. Are they right
and if they are , could you write a piece about that ?
Marisa Treviño
Irma, I haven’t heard this. In all my dealings with the Obama campaign’s Latino outreach people, I haven’t met anyone who is not Latino. Can you tell me which blogs are writing about this so I can check it out? Thanks!
Alessandra
Correction:
First paragraph should read as follows:
I believe we have only had eight years of Republicans. Before that we had eight years of Clinton. Republicans took the Congress back in the mid-90s, but lost it in the 2006 to the Dems. Before the mid-90s, Democrats held the Congress for forty years or so.
Irma
Cocoanut caucus, Brown views.
I realize the first is a bit conservative, but hey Latinos have that branch too.
I myself fall into the moderate faction on most issues except immigration, affirmative action and the death penalty.
Even abortion is something that is not a deal breaker for me.
Michaela
Evelyn,
I read your post in HB and I am calling you on a couple of your lies and the things you conveniently left out in your post in HB about why Frank left. Frank stated to Marisa in here that he was leaving because Marisa herself was implying that he was a nativist and a racist. She had already reined you in on all of your personal attacks on him and others in here, so don’t get your head all swollen with arrogance with your lie about that. He didn’t leave because of you….you had already left.
Another thing you conveniently left out in HB was the fact that you attacked the whole white race over and over. That was another reason that Marisa reined you in!
Hopefully, if you do come back and post in here, you won’t continue that same kind of behavior in here with the rest of us who don’t agree with your views. I hope that Marisa won’t allow you to do that. We already lost one good patriot in here who was treated like dirt by you.
Evelyn, you also said that Frank left LL because Marisa had invited you back. Not true! It was the part in that same post where Marisa implied that Frank and some others in here were nativists and racists. It had nothing to do with Evelyn at that point. Frank left because of Marisa’s remarks. He wasn’t going to tolerate that from the blog owner also.
Evelyn
WOW, I must say I am flattered.
Tell truth now. You know you told all the lies because you want me back!
You just knew I wouldent be able to resist coming back. LOL!
Michaela said:
Evelyn,
I read your post in HB and I am calling you on a couple of your lies and the things you conveniently left out in your post in HB about why Frank left.
E
This is what I stated at HB
Attacking Marisa shows you dont have a valid argument. Way I heard it she blocked you because of vulgarity.
I on the other hand chose to leave because when I called Frank a racist he asked that I be censored. She kind of did censor me and because my purpose for being there is to expose racism I chose to leave.
She has asked me to come back and I am going to go back because of an overwhelming amount of Emails from people who say they are counting on me. Especially one from a 9 year old boy that made me cry.
Frank got mad because she asked me back and stated he is leaving. This is not the subject here so lets try to stick to the VP pick before we get called on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frank stated to Marisa in here that he was leaving because Marisa herself was implying that he was a nativist and a racist.
E
This is what He stated, so don’t get your head all swollen with arrogance with your lie about that.
Like I stated at HB, he left in part because she invited me back.
Frank :
Marisa, if you feel that myself and others in here who support our immigration laws are racists and nativists then my purpose in here is gone.
You can invite Evelyn back and she can continue to spew her hatred of the white race and calling anyone who doesn’t agree with her immigration views, a racist.
Adios!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another thing you conveniently left out in HB was the fact that you attacked the whole white race over and over. That was another reason that Marisa reined you in!
E
You are putting words in Marisa’s mouth. Show me where she said, I attack the white race over and over. Doesn’t lying embarrass you?
Even Marisa admitted what she omitted was very little when she stated, “Nor do I feel I am censoring you as you believe.”
When I looked back at the posts the only thing she left out were my statements accusing the person of being racist, or having views based on racism.
YOU are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Speaking of reining in, what will be reined in here is all the lies you ethnocentrist like to spew. BASTA! YA!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopefully, if you do come back and post in here, you won’t continue that same kind of behavior in here with the rest of us who don’t agree with your views. I hope that Marisa won’t allow you to do that.
E
This is Marissa’s blog and I will respect her wishes and not use the word racist anymore if that is what you are refering to.
I am sure she has better things to do then sit there and remove the word racist from all my posts.
I will however continue to debunk all the lies, and will continue to expose the TRUE culprits of all the things you blame the immigrants for.
YOU do not make the rules and I could care less what your wishes, hopes or desires are. I am not here to please you or any of the other ethnocentrist.
I am here to fight for people like a nine year old boy that sent me an email, explaining that when his mother died, (he was four) he missed her very much.
He told me his dad married his new mom and he loved her with all of his heart, but was afraid she would be sent back to Mexico because when his dad tried to fix her papers she was denied because she had come in undocumented before.
He told me how when his grandmother became ill his mom wouldent hear of sending her to a nursing home and takes care of her.
He told me how his dad likes to read LL because he thinks people like me can help his mom fix her situation.
He told me he is afraid he will never see his older brother who doesent have papers either, if they send his mom to Mexico.
He also said he has two small sisters and is worried there will be no one to care for them if she is sent back.
He asked me to come back and fight for his mom. That is alot for a nine year old to shoulder.
I promised I would. I am also going to talk to my friend who is an immigration layer about her case.
His name is Brian and he and his father are white.
Dont think I told the story for your benefit. I am well aware you feel no empathy, not even for children.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We already lost one good patriot in here who was treated like dirt by you.
E
Patriots don’t bastardize the Constitution so bronze babies can be excluded from becoming Americans even though they are born here.
Patriots dont lie to demonize people who are immigrants just like their forefathers.
Patriots believe in justice, equal rights and freedom for all people on this land. They dont exclude people because of the color of their skin.
Patriots dont hate, patriots do feel empathy, espically for children.
He, is no patriot!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Evelyn, you also said that Frank left LL because Marisa had invited you back. Not true!
E
That is a lie and I already proved it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was the part in that same post where Marisa implied that Frank and some others in here were nativists and racists. It had nothing to do with Evelyn at that point. Frank left because of Marisa’s remarks. He wasn’t going to tolerate that from the blog owner also.
E
Did someone tell you if you repeated a lie over and over it would come true?
Well, it wont!
Evelyn
Thank you Marisa for inviting me back. It can get frustrating at times.
Laura, gracias por el voto de confianza. I admire you for being soft spoken but at the same time hammering your point across.
Thank You Brian, dont be afraid. Your mom is going to be fine. Study hard, mind your parents and play. That, is all you need to worry about.
To all the others who have confidence in me Thank You. I never thought my posts meant anything.
Sandra
I have read many of the posts in this blog under the various topics. I see there is a wide range of differences of opinion on illegal immigration and the enforcement of our immigration laws. I may not stick around to post much because of the cries of racism I see that are unwarranted.
I have read the exchanges between members Evelyn and Frank and quite honestly I have not read anywhere where Frank had said that he doesn’t consider children born from undocumented parents as citizens. He and others in here certainly haven’t singled out “bronze” babies at all in regards to the citizenship clause. I haven’t seen anyone in this blog exclude anyone because of the color of their skin either. What is this “exclusion” anyway? It seems dishonest to accuse others of things they haven’t said or to call verifiable statisitics, lies and racism.
The definition of a patriot is someone who loves this country and abides by its laws. If you fit that description then you are patriot. If you do not, then you are not. From reading all of these topics, it appears that Frank was the patriot and Evelyn is not. There are some other patriots in here and some who are not. Our immigration laws are what they are and we need to abide by them until or if they are changed.
Michaela
Evelyn:
Dont think I told the story for your benefit. I am well aware you feel no empathy, not even for children.”
How dare you make such a vile comment to someone you do not even know. You are well aware I have no empathy, not even for children??? How DARE you Evelyn. Keep your childish, vicious slanderous lies to yourself. I am a very empathic person and deeply resent your stating I am NOT, as if it is some kind of fact. I am thankful you have been reined in on your ridiculous overuse of the “racist” word, but you need to rein YOURSELF in on your comments meant to abuse and degrade other commenters. That is a childish tactic Evelyn.
Evelyn
Sandra said:
I have read many of the posts in this blog under the various topics. I see there is a wide range of differences of opinion on illegal immigration and the enforcement of our immigration laws. I may not stick around to post much because of the cries of racism I see that are unwarranted.
E
Well of course you’re not going to stick around because you already know that you wont get away with discriminatory behavior.
It will be debunked. exposed and put on display in all it’s putrid glory for all the world to see.
You seem to be under the impression that I am the only one that is aware of the racist behavior that some people on this blog support and apply. Many people here have called Him the same word I did and even Marisa admitted his behavior was, well here are her exact words.
Posted on 26 de Agosto 2008 09:25
Marisa Treviño :
OK, Frank and Evelyn. I’ve sat by and watched your interaction and while I do feel Evelyn may overuse the term “racist,” I don’t think she’s wrong in its definition. Does that mean I think you’re a racist Frank? Partly yes, if we are to go by the definition.
………….
Can all of us be wrong and only those who hate Hispanics right? I dont think so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have read the exchanges between members Evelyn and Frank and quite honestly I have not read anywhere where Frank had said that he doesn’t consider children born from undocumented parents as citizens. He and others in here certainly haven’t singled out “bronze” babies at all in regards to the citizenship clause. I haven’t seen anyone in this blog exclude anyone because of the color of their skin either. What is this “exclusion” anyway? It seems dishonest to accuse others of things they haven’t said or to call verifiable statisitics, lies and racism.
E
Well then you must be blind!
Show me one post where they referred to the wide open Northern Border. You cant. It doesn’t exist!
Show me one post where they have referred to the ill-eagle Canadians or anchor babies of the Irish or German Or Asian Or any other race. None, Nada, Zilch. They dont exist either!
No, it is always the southern border they talk about and the Mexicans, Latinos or Hispanics that they try to exclude from having American babies, from working, renting, using medical facilities, going to school, buying a home, banking, getting a drivers licence, owning a vehicle, or becoming citizens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The definition of a patriot is someone who loves this country and abides by its laws. If you fit that description then you are patriot. If you do not, then you are not. From reading all of these topics, it appears that Frank was the patriot and Evelyn is not. There are some other patriots in here and some who are not. Our immigration laws are what they are and we need to abide by them until or if they are changed.
E
Patriots dont pick and choose laws to abide by. If we should abide by all laws then why aren’t any of those pesudo-patriots outraged when ICE breaks the law by their blatant disrespect for the rights of all people within the borders of the U.S.
Proof of this is the fact that ACLU, MALDEF, ADL are collecting millions dollars for immigrants whose rights have been violated by ICE.
ICE ignore and violate immigrants rights and pesudo-patriots applaud.
An idiot sheriff in AZ. violates the laws that protect immigrants and pesudo-patriots applaud.
These pesudo-patriots even break the law themselves, but because law enforcement in the area where they are hunting immigrants share the same discriminatory behavior, they are not prosecuted.
The terrorist KKK aka minutemen (had to change name for obvious reasons)
are guilty of illegal imprisonment. They break the law.
This is the exact language of this law they violate
“restraint without consent through intimidation or deception.” And that’s where the minutemen vigilantes most often violate the law — with intimidation and deception.
Pesudo-patriots who uphold, defend and want others to follow the law described in the following paragraph tell alot about their character and fact they may be alot of things, Patriots sure isnt one of them.
LIKE ALICE following the white rabbit, thousands of immigrants to the U.S. are trapped in the confusing and all-powerful legal net of recently enacted harsh laws, added to the already confusing laws in need of reform.
These Federal statutes do not comport with due process standards or the fundamental fairness inherent in the American justice system that protect people within the United States Of America. Clearly, there is a double standard for immigrants.
Anyone who has to flaunt their patriotism by posting using a patriotic name in a forum or blog run by a hate group and disrespect the American flag by using clothing fabricated from it and go out dressed in this clothing to stand on street corners to bastardize the American flag by waving it while harassing hard working people who are the same as their forefathers are sick, and those are not patriots they are media queens.
Patriots are those fighting to uphold the constution and the rights granted (justice, equality,freedom) to all Americans in the U.S.A.
Evelyn
The True Meaning of Patriotism
By Lawrence W. Reed
Patriotism these days is like Christmas—lots of people caught up in a festive atmosphere replete with lights and spectacles. We hear reminders about “the true meaning†of Christmas—and we may even mutter a few guilt-ridden words to that effect ourselves—but each of us spends more time and thought in parties, gift-giving, and the other paraphernalia of a secularized holiday than we do deepening our devotion to the true meaning.
So it is with patriotism, especially on Memorial Day in May, Flag Day in June, and Independence Day in July. Walk down Main Street America and ask one citizen after another what patriotism means and with few exceptions, you’ll get a passel of the most self-righteous but superficial and often dead-wrong answers. America’s Founders, the men and women who gave us reason to be patriotic in the first place, would think we’ve lost our way if they could see us now.
Since the infamous attacks of September 11, 2001, Americans in near unanimity have been “feeling†patriotic. For most, that sadly suffices to make one a solid patriot. But if I’m right, it’s time for Americans to take a refresher course.
Patriotism is not love of country, if by “country†you mean scenery—amber waves of grain, purple mountain majesty, and the like. Almost every country has pretty collections of rocks, water, and stuff that people grow and eat. If that’s what patriotism is all about, then Americans have precious little for which we can claim any special or unique love. And surely, patriotism cannot mean giving one’s life for a river or a mountain range.
Patriotism is not blind trust in anything our leaders tell us or do. That just replaces some lofty concepts with mindless goose-stepping.
Patriotism is not simply showing up to vote. You need to know a lot more about what motivates a voter before you judge his patriotism. He might be casting a ballot because he just wants something at someone else’s expense. Maybe he doesn’t much care where the politician he’s hiring gets it. Remember Dr. Johnson’s wisdom: “Patriot-ism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.â€
Waving the flag can be an outward sign of patriotism, but let’s not cheapen the term by ever suggesting that it’s anything more than a sign. And while it’s always fitting to mourn those who lost their lives simply because they resided on American soil, that too does not define patriotism.
People in every country and in all times have expressed feelings of something we flippantly call “patriotism,†but that just begs the question. What is this thing, anyway? Can it be so cheap and meaningless that a few gestures and feelings make you patriotic?
Not in my book.
I subscribe to a patriotism rooted in ideas that in turn gave birth to a country, but it’s the ideas that I think of when I’m feeling patriotic. I’m a patriotic American because I revere the ideas that motivated the Founders and compelled them, in many instances, to put their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor on the line.
What ideas? Read the Declaration of Independence again. Or, if you’re like most Americans these days, read it for the very first time. It’s all there. All men are created equal. They are endowed not by government but by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Premier among those rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Government must be limited to protecting the peace and preserving our liberties, and doing so through the consent of the governed. It’s the right of a free people to rid themselves of a government that becomes destructive of those ends, as our Founders did in a supreme act of courage and defiance more than two hundred years ago.
Call it freedom. Call it liberty. Call it whatever you want, but it’s the bedrock on which this nation was founded and from which we stray at our peril. It’s what has defined us as Americans. It’s what almost everyone who has ever lived on this planet has yearned for. It makes life worth living, which means it’s worth fighting and dying for.
I hear it from some of the nicest people one would ever meet. Some dear friends of mine, whom I respect very much, say that all illegal immigrants are criminals because they broke the laws that control who may come into this country. And since these immigrants are criminals, we don’t want that kind of person here.
Such accusations confuse what is legal with what is moral. American history is filled with people who broke unjust laws and were morally justified in doing so.
The American Revolution was fought by men and women who broke the laws of England and of King George III. Had they been arrested, they would have been hanged for treason to the Crown. If breaking the law makes one a criminal, then the Founding Fathers were all criminals. But no one believes that today.
Evelyn
Michaela said:
How dare you make such a vile comment to someone you do not even know. You are well aware I have no empathy, not even for children??? How DARE you Evelyn.
E
This is how I DARE, BY OBSERVING every time you defend others who show no empathy.
Posted on 28 de Julio 2008 02:56
Michaela :
Franks said, “Care to explain how people like you are granting the rest of America freedom of speech? It is guaranteed by our Constitution. Did you write it?”
I don’t quite understand Evelyn’s hostility. As you say Frank, our freedom of speech is guaranteed by our Constitution. I almost get the feeling Evelyn thinks SHE is doing us some great favor by ALLOWING us to exercise our first amendment right to freedom of speech. I notice you have been accused of being hostile here, but frankly, the depth of the hatred Evelyn seems to have for Americans (just white Americans?) is very distressing to me.
Posted on 28 de Julio 2008 15:43
Frank :
Michaela, glad you can see what is really going on in here. I don’t post negative articles or lies about legal or illegal Hispanics even though I am falsely accused of it by her. The Congressional Budget Office (a government source) has already stated that illegal immigration is a negative to our country. I am called a racist anyway even though I mostly only argue from the rule of law point of view. She hates all whites that don’t agree with her views and can’t debate civilly. All she has is the race card and her vile insults. If I were Marisa I would throw her off this blog for those kinds of tactics. It doesn’t make her blog look good.
I DARE BY WATCHING YOU DEFEND THIS DESPICABLE BEHAVIOR
Posted on 16 de Junio 2008 00:21
Frank :
Seeking change to the 14th Amendment clause about birthright citizenship born from parents of illegal aliens though is not unpatriotic and is a whole different ball of wax than a child of ANY race being born from parents who are citizens of this country.
AND THIS ONE!
name of thread
Why do we watch and say nothing while ICE traumatizes the children of the undocumented?
Frank :
All the bleeding heart stories in the world doesn’t change the fact it is the parents who did this to their children.
These children will learn from this experience that breaking laws is not acceptable and teach them a lesson in morality and respect, not the other way around.
The child he is talking about is about 2 or3 years old.
Sad really sad!
ANOTHER ONE!
name of thread
Dept. of Homeland Security has deported over 90,000 children under the age of 17 to Mexico without a parent or caregiver
Posted on 24 de Agosto 2008 08:09
Frank
It may not matter what I or others think about the 14th Amendment, IT CAN BE RE-INTERPRETED THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE BY THE SUPREME COURT!
~~~~~~
Just like all of you showed no Empathy for these children, and even defend those whose behavior is the coldest, now try to defend yourself. You cant, because defending the type indifference shown to the children’s plight is dispicable.
This type behavior shows even worse on a woman then a man. We are suppose to nurture by nature. You should have called attention to him instead of defending him.
“Empathy is an essential component of human social life.
Much of the racism in America today manifests itself in a lack of empathy.
http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=28
~~~~~~~~
I am thankful you have been reined in on your ridiculous overuse of the “racist” word, but you need to rein
E
LOL! The only one reined in here is you!
It was by choice I stopped using the word racist. I did it because I know the meaning of respect.
It was taught to me when I was a child. It might do you good to learn it. If you can.
Respect for other human beings is a good place to start!
Sandra
I do not discriminate against anyone based on their skin color, race or ethnic background. That would make me a racist and I am not one. Just because someone calls another a racist, doesn’t necessarily make it so if they are making up their own definition of a racist rather than the accepted one. Illegal immigration isn’t about citizens, it is about foreigners who haven’t honored our immigration laws and are here illegally in our country.
I have read remarks by many patriots who want both of our borders secured but the focus is on our southern border because that is where the majority are coming from, not because of what race they are. It just so happens that it is Mexicans and other Latinos who live south of that border. It could just as easily be the Chinese if China were south of our border and they were the ones entering our country illegally.
If any “immigrants” rights have been violated within the concepts of our Constitution then I am all for them getting their just dues. If there is any corruption or non-compliance with policy in the enforcement of any of our laws by any law enforcement personnel, then I am all for them being held accountable also.
I disagree that the Minutemen are the equivalant of the KKK. I have found no evidence of that but everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are bad apples in every barrel but I wouldn’t throw out the entire barrel of apples based on that. If they are breaking any laws, then why haven’t they “all” been arrested?
I do believe in justice, equality and freedom for all Americans. I also believe that all Americans and foreigners should abide by our laws and should be equally punished for not doing so. That is part of what is called equality.
I think some of our laws do need changing. Some agree some disagree as to which ones need changing and how but I would never insult another American for not viewing things the way that I do or calling them names for those views.
Sandra
On birthright citizenship, I never read where Frank or anyone else in here was suggesting that those children born from parents here illegally should be stripped of their citizenship. So that is a lie right there. There have been bills introduced in congress to make it mandatory for one parent to be a citizen or legal resident in order for their child born on our soil to become instantly a citizen. There are no bills in congress pending that would strip those who already have been granted birth citizenship, of that citizenship. If the bill were to pass it would only apply to any babies born after that point. Most Americans that I know of are not for stripping anyone of their citizenship who already have it and I haven’t read anyone in this blog say that either. What is the big deal if they become citizens of their parent’s country instead? Most countries have that policy and it makes sense for us to adopt that policy also.
Certainly if some groups want to change our immigration laws, other groups should have the right to seek changes in other laws to, such as birthright citizenship. It doesn’t mean we have to agree with each other but we should respect each other’s opinions without going on the attack.
Evelyn Chavez
Sandra :
I do not discriminate against anyone based on their skin color, race or ethnic background. That would make me a racist and I am not one. Just because someone calls another a racist, doesn’t necessarily make it so if they are making up their own definition of a racist rather than the accepted one. Illegal immigration isn’t about citizens, it is about foreigners who haven’t honored our immigration laws and are here illegally in our country.
I have read remarks by many patriots who want both of our borders secured but the focus is on our southern border because that is where the majority are coming from, not because of what race they are. It just so happens that it is Mexicans and other Latinos who live south of that border. It could just as easily be the Chinese if China were south of our border and they were the ones entering our country illegally.
E
When you defend discriminatory behavior, or defend those who display discriminatory behavior it is not an indication of being without culpibility of racism.
â— Myth No. 1: “We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas.” That’s deceptive because you can’t demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into.
While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year — and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated — the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year, and most of them are already here.
“There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration visas,” says Frank Sharry, head of the National Immigration Forum, which advocates both secure borders and a path to legal residence for many of the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.
On top of that, most anti-immigration groups want to reduce legal immigration. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a favorite of radio and cable television Hispanic immigrant-bashing news shows, wants to reduce legal immigration from the current 1 million a year to about 300,000, with a 20-year cooling-off period.
â— Myth No. 2: “Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic.” Maybe many aren’t, but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?
In addition, the escalating immigration hysteria has created an ugly environment that affects all Hispanics — both legal and undocumented — in many parts of the country, as recent studies by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center have shown.
“We are seeing more discrimination and harassment,” says Michele Waslin, of the Immigration Policy Center. “Anybody who is Hispanic-looking or has a Hispanic last name is being treated as an undocumented immigrant.”
â— Myth No. 3: “We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally.” Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.
â— Myth No. 4: “Building a border fence will solve the problem.” Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times greater than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won’t fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.
â— Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are “amnesty” and “open borders” supporters. Baloney. I, for one, support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English.
My conclusion: Let’s call things by their names, and agree that most opponents of a comprehensive immigration package are anti-immigration.
The only way to solve the current immigration crisis will be to legalize undocumented workers who have paid their dues and to increase economic integration with Mexico and the rest of Latin America in order to reduce poverty and emigration pressures south of the border.
The rest is, for the most part, populist demagoguery.
My opinion
~~~~~~~
I disagree that the Minutemen are the equivalant of the KKK. I have found no evidence of that but everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are bad apples in every barrel but I wouldn’t throw out the entire barrel of apples based on that. If they are breaking any laws, then why haven’t they “all” been arrested?
E
Here is proof they are. Those holding the Confedrate flag are KKKers AKA Stormfront.
http://www.elmerfudd.us/darkwind/tackle.htm
http://i57.photobucket
.com/albums/g204/automatic_writing/MinutemenandNazis.jpg
Evelyn
Sandra said:
On birthright citizenship, I never read where Frank or anyone else in here was suggesting that those children born from parents here illegally should be stripped of their citizenship.
E
Here are two examples if what you say you have never heard or seen.
Frank :
Seeking change to the 14th Amendment clause about birthright citizenship born from parents of illegal aliens though is not unpatriotic and is a whole different ball of wax than a child of ANY race being born from parents who are citizens of this country.
Posted on 24 de Agosto 2008 08:09
Frank
It may not matter what I or others think about the 14th Amendment, IT CAN BE RE-INTERPRETED
~~~~~
Certainly if some groups want to change our immigration laws, other groups should have the right to seek changes in other laws to, such as birthright citizenship. It doesn’t mean we have to agree with each other but we should respect each other’s opinions without going on the attack.
E
I respect everyone’s opinion in fact I will fight so everyone can have one and have a chance to be heard.
When people stray and lie to demonize immigrants knowingly or not, I also have a right to expose the lies and follow the path of TRUTH.
Some of the people here think if they repeat a lie over and over it will become true. It wont! LOL!
Here is more on birthright.
Anti-Immigrant Republican Brian Bilbray’s Bizarre Crusade on the 14th Amendment
By Rhonda Brownstein, Southern Poverty Law Center. Posted September 1, 2008.
THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE BY THE SUPREME COURT!
In almost every session of congress he has been part of since 1995, U.S. Rep. Brian Bilbray (R-Calif.) has unsuccessfully sponsored a law that aims to deny American citizenship to children born in the United States of non-citizen parents. His persistence is not a surprise: Bilbray is a former lobbyist for the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a right-wing, anti-immigrant group that paid him almost $300,000 to lobby on its behalf between 2002 and 2005, and has headed the hard-line Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus since early last year. The current version of Bilbray’s perennially losing legislation is called the Birthright Citizenship Act of 2007.
Still, it seems strange that Rep. Bilbray would sponsor such a bill, given that his own mother was a non-citizen. But Bilbray carved out an exception that would conveniently apply to him — that a child born in the U.S. is considered a citizen so long as at least one parent is (1) a citizen; (2) a lawful permanent resident; or (3) in active military service. Bilbray’s father was a U.S. citizen.
Even if Bilbray could manage to get his bill enacted into law, it would almost certainly be struck down as unconstitutional. The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.” It would take a constitutional amendment, not a mere act of Congress, to deny citizenship to those born on U.S. soil.
Bilbray claims that his bill is simply advancing an interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment — as Congress is permitted to do under its power to enact laws to enforce the Constitution — rather than proposing a change that would require the very difficult and extended process of amending the Constitution. The crux of his tortured argument is that the Fourteenth Amendment clause “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” denies citizenship to American-born children whose parents “owe allegiance to another country.” Not surprisingly, Bilbray is not specific about what that phrase means.
But as the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service found: “Although the primary aim of the Fourteenth Amendment was to secure citizenship for African Americans, the debates on the citizenship provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment indicate that they were intended to extend U.S. citizenship to all persons born in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction, regardless of race, ethnicity, or alienage of the parents” (emphasis added).
Sandra
Evelyn:
When you defend discriminatory behavior, or defend those who display discriminatory behavior it is not an indication of being without culpibility of racism.”
There are only a certain number of skilled and unskilled immigrants that we can allow in every year based on our labor needs and other criteria that are in the national interest. We have fair quotas from different countries. There is no discrimination based on common sense and the national interests.
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 1: “We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas.” That’s deceptive because you can’t demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into.”
If there is no line it is because the line of people that we need have already entered legally. Kind of like when a movie theatre is full. There are no more lines or tickets available. One can’t just crash the movie theatre anyway.
Evelyn:
“While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year — and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated — the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year, and most of them are already here.
“There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration visas,” says Frank Sharry, head of the National Immigration Forum, which advocates both secure borders and a path to legal residence for many of the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.
On top of that, most anti-immigration groups want to reduce legal immigration. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a favorite of radio and cable television Hispanic immigrant-bashing news shows, wants to reduce legal immigration from the current 1 million a year to about 300,000, with a 20-year cooling-off period.”
Many believe that there is no actual shortage of low-skilled American citizen labor. Just that there is an ample supply of workers here illegally who work cheaper and willing employers to hire them. There are “expert” statistics available both pro and con on this subject. One person’s expert is another person’s mere opinion. At any rate, it is still not right for either employer or employee to violate our immigration laws to achieve their goals. That is why we have a congress to enact changes in laws if needed. We can’t put the cart before the horse until that happens.
I am aware that some want to reduce legal immigraton also. Ever done any research to see if they have any valid concerns about a potential population growth doubling and in a few short years, even by taking into account the baby boomer generation dying off? It is a concern of many Americans in so many ways.
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 2: “Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic.” Maybe many aren’t, but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?
In addition, the escalating immigration hysteria has created an ugly environment that affects all Hispanics — both legal and undocumented — in many parts of the country, as recent studies by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center have shown.
“We are seeing more discrimination and harassment,” says Michele Waslin, of the Immigration Policy Center. “Anybody who is Hispanic-looking or has a Hispanic last name is being treated as an undocumented immigrant.”
I personally don’t know of any Americans who are anti-immigrant but I do know of many who are anti-illegal immigrant. As I said, in another post illegals from south of our border are mentioned more often because they make up 80% of the 60% who have crossed our border illegally. There is no hidden racist agenda. Those are just statistical facts.
It is unfortunate if Hispanic citizens are under suspicion now. They can thank those south of the border who came here illegally for that. But they have valid I.D.,so that sets them apart from someone with no I.D. or a fake I.D. No one can be harrassed when providing a valid I.D. I have many Hispanic-American neighbors and they don’t get harrassed or live in fear. They live normal lives. Those situatons are the exception to the rule, not the norm.
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 3: “We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally.” Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.
Yes, we have been a nation of immigrants but they are expected to enter our country legally not illegally. Yes, there are 40% who do overstay their visas. They need to be monitored so that they leave when their visas expire or renew them on time.
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 4: “Building a border fence will solve the problem.” Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times greater than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won’t fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.
The double layered fence along with beefed up Border Patrol and other technological deterrants will work with a high percentage of success. We are not expecting a 100% success rate. I would like to see both borders secured. Terrorist entry is a real threat also.
If employers can prove that we need more foreign labor to fill jobs here, then they need to lobby our government to increase immigration quotas. Circumventing our labor and immigration laws to acquire labor is not acceptable. They can scale back their production if needed until their labor issues are resolved through government channels.
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are “amnesty” and “open borders” supporters. Baloney. I, for one, support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English.”
I disagree because our government will just double cross us again as they did in 1986 and not secure our borders. We also need a government study to be done first on how many actual foreign workers we need before any blanket legalization. I am also concerned that this just sends yet another signal for the next batch to cross hoping for yet another amnesty.
Evelyn:
My conclusion: Let’s call things by their names, and agree that most opponents of a comprehensive immigration package are anti-immigration.
The only way to solve the current immigration crisis will be to legalize undocumented workers who have paid their dues and to increase economic integration with Mexico and the rest of Latin America in order to reduce poverty and emigration pressures south of the border.
The rest is, for the most part, populist demagoguery.
My opinion
I disagree with your “conclusion” that most opponents of CIR are anti-immigration. This isn’t about legal immigrants. There are many reasons that they feel the way they do. Some of them I have posted in here. Most don’t have any sinister agenda. There is always more than one way to solve a problem. Many don’t agree with your solution. Mexico and other countries who don’t value their own citizens enough to provide jobs and a decent lifestyle for them need to start being responsible for them. I would rather we work with Mexico to ensure this happens than for their entire populace to spill into our country by the millions.
Evelyn:
“Here is proof that the MM are the equivalant to the KKK. Those holding the Confedrate flag are KKKers AKA Stormfront.”
http://www.elmerfudd.us/darkwind/tackle.htm
http://i57.photobucket
The Minuteman do not associate or approve of the KKK. These radicals show up at rallies just as the Reconquista radicals show up for the other side. It doesn’t mean they were invited or are approved of by that side.
Evelyn: (regarding birthright citizenship)
“Here are two examples if what you say you have never heard or seen.”
Frank :
Seeking change to the 14th Amendment clause about birthright citizenship born from parents of illegal aliens though is not unpatriotic and is a whole different ball of wax than a child of ANY race being born from parents who are citizens of this country.
Frank:
It may not matter what I or others think about the 14th Amendment, IT CAN BE RE-INTERPRETED
Ok, so where does Frank say that he wants the citizenship stripped from those who already have it? It is only about after a bill passes to mandate one parent be a citizen in order for their newborn to acquire birthright citizenship from that point forward.
Evelyn:
“I respect everyone’s opinion….
Well part of that respect is to not attack someone for their opinion, don’t you think?
“When people stray and lie to demonize immigrants knowingly or not, I also have a right to expose the lies and follow the path of TRUTH.”
Well, I don’t think anyone lies or demonizes “immigrants”. Everyone has a right to believe what stats they choose to believe about those in our country illegally, don’t they? One person’s lies can be another’s truth and vice versa. There are many different studies that are both pro and con out there. I think we should rely on good goverment sources for the facts. But ultimately it is about our immigration laws as they are written today anyway.
Evelyn
Sandra :
Evelyn:
When you defend discriminatory behavior, or defend those who display discriminatory behavior it is not an indication of being without culpability of racism.”
Sandra
There are only a certain number of skilled and unskilled immigrants that we can allow in every year based on our labor needs and other criteria that are in the national interest. We have fair quotas from different countries. There is no discrimination based on common sense and the national interests.
E
Then dont defend ethnocentrists. Cut to the chase and say what you mean.
The immigrants I defend are not in some line waiting to be allowed in .
They are productive integrates of our society who are contributing to our economy , behaving, learning English, and have been here long enough to set down roots.
~~~~~~~~
Evelyn
â— Myth No. 1: “We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas.” That’s deceptive because you can’t demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into.”
Sandra
If there is no line it is because the line of people that we need have already entered legally. Kind of like when a movie theatre is full. There are no more lines or tickets available. One can’t just crash the movie theatre anyway.
E
Then dont suggest they get in line and do it the right way.
~~~~~
Evelyn:
“While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year — and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated — the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year, and most of them are already here.
“There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration visas,” says Frank Sharry, head of the National Immigration Forum, which advocates both secure borders and a path to legal residence for many of the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.
On top of that, most anti-immigration groups want to reduce legal immigration. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a favorite of radio and cable television Hispanic immigrant-bashing news shows, wants to reduce legal immigration from the current 1 million a year to about 300,000, with a 20-year cooling-off period.”
Sandra
Many believe that there is no actual shortage of low-skilled American citizen labor. Just that there is an ample supply of workers here illegally who work cheaper and willing employers to hire them. There are “expert” statistics available both pro and con on this subject. One person’s expert is another person’s mere opinion.
E
I can see you would rather debate what some people believe rather than debunk facts given by me with credable proof.
Some people also believe in Santa Clause. If you have credible statistics from credable sites show them, talking about them does no good.
~~~~~~
Sandra
At any rate, it is still not right for either employer or employee to violate our immigration laws to achieve their goals. That is why we have a congress to enact changes in laws if needed. We can’t put the cart before the horse until that happens.
E
Some times it takes breaking the law like these guys did.
The American Revolution was fought by men and women who broke the laws of England and of King George III. Had they been arrested, they would have been hanged for treason to the Crown. If breaking the law makes one a criminal, then the Founding Fathers were all criminals. But no one still believes that today
~~~~~~~~
Sandra
I am aware that some want to reduce legal immigraton also. Ever done any research to see if they have any valid concerns about a potential population growth doubling and in a few short years, even by taking into account the baby boomer generation dying off? It is a concern of many Americans in so many ways.
E
Yes as matter fact I have, have you? That is one of the excuses conjured up by those who fuel this hate fest against Hispanics for not wanting immigrants here, cause it’s like you said most of them are Hispanic.
The USA has the world’s third-largest population, trailing far behind China (1.3 billion) and India (1.1 billion). Accompanying the 300 million milestone will be numerous complaints about the supposed overpopulation and overcrowding of America, yet the United States, on a list of the world’s 193 nations arranged by population density, ranks only 143 and has one of the world’s richest sets of natural resources to boot. Despite suburban sprawl and rapid population growth in some metropolitan regions, the United States as a whole is far from overpopulated.
The world’s population density is 43 people per square kilometer. That includes the vast areas of land — the Sahara desert, the Australian interior, Greenland — where almost no one lives. The USA’s population density is 30.
One of the paramount complaints made about America’s population expansion will be environmental: Population growth is making our environment unsustainable. Yet many nations with environmental records equal to or superior to our own, in most environmentalists’ eyes, have far greater population densities: Austria, 97; France, 110; Denmark, 126; Switzerland, 181; Italy, 192; Germany, 230; Britain, 243; Belgium, 339; the Netherlands, 395. These countries, with their powerful green lobbies, typically have environmental laws more stringent than our own. And Russia, with a tiny population density of 8, has a very poor environmental record.
~~~~~~~~~
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 2: “Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic.” Maybe many aren’t, but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?
In addition, the escalating immigration hysteria has created an ugly environment that affects all Hispanics — both legal and undocumented — in many parts of the country, as recent studies by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center have shown.
“We are seeing more discrimination and harassment,” says Michele Waslin, of the Immigration Policy Center. “Anybody who is Hispanic-looking or has a Hispanic last name is being treated as an undocumented immigrant.”
Sandra
I personally don’t know of any Americans who are anti-immigrant but I do know of many who are anti-illegal immigrant. As I said, in another post illegals from south of our border are mentioned more often because they make up 80% of the 60% who have crossed our border illegally. There is no hidden racist agenda. Those are just statistical facts.
E
Yeah, none of the ethnocentrists will admit to it, only the media and the majority of Americans see it and the majority of Hispanics experience it.
~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
It is unfortunate if Hispanic citizens are under suspicion now. They can thank those south of the border who came here illegally for that. But they have valid I.D.,so that sets them apart from someone with no I.D. or a fake I.D. No one can be harrassed when providing a valid I.D. I have many Hispanic-American neighbors and they don’t get harrassed or live in fear. They live normal lives. Those situatons are the exception to the rule, not the norm.
E
Typical ethnocentrists speak.
Doesn’t merit a response because she must not follow the news every day! Most Americans do!
~~~~~~~~~~
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 3: “We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally.” Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.
Sandra
Yes, we have been a nation of immigrants but they are expected to enter our country legally not illegally. Yes, there are 40% who do overstay their visas. They need to be monitored so that they leave when their visas expire or renew them on time.
E
I agree. That is why we need CIR! These little things are a part of it, congress isn’t going to address these little issues alone. They must be part of a larger package.
~~~~~~~~
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 4: “Building a border fence will solve the problem.” Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times greater than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won’t fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.
Sandra
The double layered fence along with beefed up Border Patrol and other technological deterrants will work with a high percentage of success. We are not expecting a 100% success rate. I would like to see both borders secured. Terrorist entry is a real threat also.
If employers can prove that we need more foreign labor to fill jobs here, then they need to lobby our government to increase immigration quotas. Circumventing our labor and immigration laws to acquire labor is not acceptable. They can scale back their production if needed until their labor issues are resolved through government channels.
E
Sucking the wealth out of there countries because of our greed was not acceptable either. So now suck it up and accept the consequences. As in ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!
~~~~~~~~
Evelyn:
â— Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are “amnesty” and “open borders” supporters. Baloney. I, for one, support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English.”
Sandra
I disagree because our government will just double cross us again as they did in 1986 and not secure our borders. We also need a government study to be done first on how many actual foreign workers we need before any blanket legalization. I am also concerned that this just sends yet another signal for the next batch to cross hoping for yet another amnesty.
E
They already are double crossing you it’s called de-facto amnesty.
With the insistence of a biometric card shown to employers when an immigrant wants a job. Those without one who don’t qualify (illegal immigrants) wont come.
That, is the deterrent, cut off the jobs, go after the employers twenty thousand in fines and 5 years in jail!
Building walls of shame is like flushing money down the toilet.
~~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
I disagree with your “conclusion” that most opponents of CIR are anti-immigration. This isn’t about legal immigrants. There are many reasons that they feel the way they do. Some of them I have posted in here. Most don’t have any sinister agenda. There is always more than one way to solve a problem. Many don’t agree with your solution.
E
Again typical ethnocentrists speak. I dont care if they dont agree with the majority of Americans like me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
Mexico and other countries who don’t value their own citizens enough to provide jobs and a decent lifestyle for them need to start being responsible for them. I would rather we work with Mexico to ensure this happens than for their entire populace to spill into our country by the millions.
E
First the U.S. needs to stop meddling in the elections in Mexico and all the other countries in America.
Then the U.S. can butt out and let them govern themselves. That would solve the Immigration crisis.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
The Minuteman do not associate or approve of the KKK. These radicals show up at rallies just as the Reconquista radicals show up for the other side. It doesn’t mean they were invited or are approved of by that side
E
Wrong, there are many well documented locations when all these hate groups gather for picnics and protests.
~~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
Ok, so where does Frank say that he wants the citizenship stripped from those who already have it? It is only about after a bill passes to mandate one parent be a citizen in order for their newborn to acquire birthright citizenship from that point forward.
E
I never said he did. I said he wanted to bastardise the constitution by changing it.
~~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
“I respect everyone’s opinion….
Well part of that respect is to not attack someone for their opinion, don’t you think?
E
I dont attack people I cant even reach them. LOL! I attack their lies.
“When people stray and lie to demonize immigrants knowingly or not, I also have a right to expose the lies and follow the path of TRUTH.”
~~~~~~~~~
Sandra
Well, I don’t think anyone lies or demonizes “immigrants”. Everyone has a right to believe what stats they choose to believe about those in our country illegally, don’t they? One person’s lies can be another’s truth and vice versa.
E
If you open your eyes you could see. My guess is you are blinded by the will of others.
Yes everyone does have a right to believe what he chooses. I choose to believe the TRUTH!
Studies done by credable experts in there field cannot be another persons lies. LOL!
~~~~~
Sandra
There are many different studies that are both pro and con out there. I think we should rely on good goverment sources for the facts. But ultimately it is about our immigration laws as they are written today anyway.
E
Then show some of those studies. I do rely on good gov. sources for facts! That is my ace!
Michaela
Sandra
Yes, we have been a nation of immigrants but they are expected to enter our country legally not illegally. Yes, there are 40% who do overstay their visas. They need to be monitored so that they leave when their visas expire or renew them on time.
Agreed. Once they overstay their visas they have broken our laws. What is hard to understand about that? I am curious as to why they do not renew their visas? Is it asking too much of them to trouble themselves?
Sandra
Evelyn,
It is not I who is defending ethnocentrics, it is you. I am not defending white people entering this country today illegally but you are defending “brown” people who do. Is you thinking really this twisted?
The people who were in line to enter this country have already entered. There is no more line after our allotment for the year has been reached. They don’t have the right to create their own line after that and to just crash the gates. It is our country and we have the right to set quotas for immigration. Crashing the gates does not give them the right to stay here just because they set down roots.
I have not seen you provide any more credible statistics on illegal immigration than anyone elses in here. Much of it was mere opinion. In reading many of the topics in here I did notice a report by the U.S. government provided by a member call liquidmicro which is what I would tend to believe than anyone else’s research. Why won’t you accept what a government research has provided?
I really don’t care what citizens did in other counries in regards to breaking their laws. This isn’t about citizens breaking our laws but illegal immigrants.
In regards to population growth evidently you lack the knowledge to know what “carrying capacity” means in a country. There are many factors involved in determining that, not just land space. I don’t know why you would bring up Hispanics in that discussion because we all use the same amount of natural resouces and other critical resources in this country. A human is a human and we all make the same demands on the earth.
As I said, my Hispanic neighbors are not being harrassed and are not living in fear. The media may talk about some incidents for sensationalism to create nees but as I said there is no rampant harrassment of Hispanic citizens in this country.
Sorry, but I will not accept the violation of our immigration laws by the millions because or if our government’s foreign policies have failed. I would seek to fix them and so should you but it does not justify the above. Are you giving the Mexican government elite a pass in this mess?
I think we need to have a national I.D., mandate e-verify, provide benefits to only citizens and build a physical barrier. Terrorists have no interest in benefits or jobs. The physical barrier is to assist the Border Patrol and is a deterrant to illegal entry.
No, you are wrong. KKKers are not part of the Minutemen group. They show up just like the reconquistas do to the pro-illegal rallies, uninvited.
Changing the constitution is not bastardizing it anymore than changing our immigration laws is bastardizing those laws. There is nothing in our Cosntitution that says you can’t change or alter an amendment through legislation.
I have read your posts Evelyn, you attack both the message and the messenger. You cannot deny that.
Evelyn
Michaela said
Agreed. Once they overstay their visas they have broken our laws.
Yes they have broken the law, but not criminal law. It is called Administrative law. This explains it better.
When illegal entry is treated as a matter of criminal law, instead of being expelled through an administrative proceeding, those accused have the right to a jury trial and all the rules of evidence apply.
The government is burdened with “proof beyond a reasonable doubt.” Imagine the cost and the caseload.
While illegal entry is subject to criminal prosecution under the statute cited, illegal presence is not a crime under the statute cited.
Someone picked up for over staying a visa would be subject to deportation proceedings under administrative law but would not be subject to criminal prosecution simply for being here.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976743890
~~~~~
What is hard to understand about that? I am curious as to why they do not renew their visas? Is it asking too much of them to trouble themselves?
E
They dont renew their visas because they cant. The laws in the U.S. are not as lax as those in Mexico where when you get to the end of your stay you can renew your visa.
Here they allow a person to stay so much time every so often.
For example 90 days out of the year. They dont give you the 90 days togather. First you are given 30, then another 30, and then the last 30.
One must return to the American council in Mexico to renew each time period.
If it is a work visa the same applies. When the visa expires you must return and reapply and hope that someday you will be called again, which never happens so most people don’t reapply. Most people who apply never get called the first time.
Liquidmicro
Evelyn says:
“They dont renew their visas because they cant. The laws in the U.S. are not as lax as those in Mexico where when you get to the end of your stay you can renew your visa.
Here they allow a person to stay so much time every so often.
For example 90 days out of the year. They dont give you the 90 days togather. First you are given 30, then another 30, and then the last 30.
One must return to the American council in Mexico to renew each time period.
If it is a work visa the same applies. When the visa expires you must return and reapply and hope that someday you will be called again, which never happens so most people don’t reapply. Most people who apply never get called the first time.”
As usual Evelyn, you have no idea what you are talking about.
http://www.immihelp.com/visas/visitor/index.html
Liquidmicro
http://tijuana.usconsulate.gov/tijuana/tourist_business/tourist/business-visas-b1/b2.html
There is no 30 day limit as you have described for visitor visas from Mexico. They fall under the same category as all other visitor visa holders.
http://tijuana.usconsulate.gov/temp_work_visas_h2.html
Even an H-2A visa is 10 months work 2 months return.
H-2B visa has an additional H-2R category and are extendable for an maximum of 3 years.
Don’t forget the TN visa, for which very few apply, they never reach maximum amount during the year. Very under utilized from Mexico.
Sandra
Whatever laws we have in this country regarding visa renewals/expirations or even our immigration laws period, foreigners must abide by them as they are written in their current form.
Liquidmicro
Here is the government link, the Code of Federal Regulations.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f52c110daaecd76c2cf49976e17d947b&rgn=div8&view=text&node=22:1.0.1.5.27.4.1.2&idno=22
Title 22: Foreign Relations
PART 41—VISAS: DOCUMENTATION OF NONIMMIGRANTS UNDER THE IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT, AS AMENDED
Subpart D—Temporary Visitors
§ 41.32 Nonresident alien Mexican border crossing identification cards; combined border crossing identification cards and B–1/B–2 visitor visas.
(a) Combined B–1/B–2 visitor visa and border crossing identification card (B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC) —(1) Authorization for issuance. Consular officers assigned to a consular office in Mexico designated by the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Visa Services for such purpose may issue a border crossing identification card, as that term is defined in INA 101(a)(6), in combination with a B–1/B–2 nonimmigrant visitor visa (B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC), to a nonimmigrant alien who:
(i) Is a citizen and resident of Mexico;
(ii) Seeks to enter the United States as a temporary visitor for business or pleasure as defined in INA 101(a)(15)(B) for periods of stay not exceeding six months;
(iii) Is otherwise eligible for a B–1 or a B–2 temporary visitor visa.
(2) Procedure for application. Mexican applicants shall apply for a B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC at any U.S. consular office in Mexico designated by the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Visa Services pursuant to paragraph (a) of this section to accept such applications. The application shall be submitted electronically on Form DS–160 or, as directed by a consular officer, on Form DS–156. If submitted electronically, it must be signed electronically by clicking the box designated “Sign Application†in the certification section of the application.
(3) Personal appearance. Each applicant shall appear in person before a consular officer to be interviewed regarding eligibility for a visitor visa, unless the consular officer waives personal appearance.
(4) Issuance and format. A B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC issued on or after April 1, 1998, shall consist of a card, Form DSP–150, containing a machine-readable biometric identifier. It shall contain the following data:
(i) Post symbol;
(ii) Number of the card;
(iii) Date of issuance;
(iv) Indicia “B–1/B–2 Visa and Border Crossing Cardâ€;
(v) Name, date of birth, and sex of the person to whom issued; and
(vi) Date of expiration.
(b) Validity. A BCC previously issued by a consular officer in Mexico on Form I–186, Nonresident Alien Mexican Border Crossing Card, or Form I–586, Nonresident Alien Border Crossing Card, is valid until the expiration date on the card (if any) unless previously revoked, but not later than the date, currently October 1, 2001, on which a machine-readable, biometric identifier in the card is required in order for the card to be usable for entry. The BCC portion of a B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC issued to a Mexican national pursuant to provisions of this section contained in the 22 CFR, parts 1 to 299, edition revised as of April 1, 1998 is valid until the date of expiration, unless previously revoked, but not later than the date, currently October 1, 2001, on which a machine-readable, biometric identifier in the card is required in order for the card to be usable for entry.
(c) Revocation. A consular or immigration officer may revoke a BCC issued on Form I–186 or Form I–586, or a B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC under the provisions of §41.122, or if the consular or immigration officer determines that the alien to whom any such document was issued has ceased to be a resident and/or a citizen of Mexico. Upon revocation, the consular or immigration officer shall notify the issuing consular or immigration office. If the revoked document is a card, the consular or immigration officer shall take possession of the card and physically cancel it under standard security conditions. If the revoked document is a stamp in a passport the consular or immigration officer shall write or stamp “canceled†on the face of the document.
(d) Voidance. (1) The voiding pursuant to INA 222(g) of the visa portion of a B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC issued at any time by a consular officer in Mexico under provisions of this section contained in the 22 CFR, parts 1 to 299, edition revised as of April 1, 1998, also voids the BCC portion of that document.
(2) A BCC issued at any time by a consular officer in Mexico under any provisions of this section contained in the 22 CFR, parts 1 to 299, edition revised as of April 1, 1998, is void if a consular or immigration officer determines that the alien has violated the conditions of the alien’s admission into the United States, including the period of stay authorized by the Secretary of Homeland Security.
(3) A consular or immigration officer shall immediately take possession of a card determined to be void under paragraphs (d) (1) or (2) of this section and physically cancel it under standard security conditions. If the document voided in paragraphs (d) (1) or (2) is in the form of a stamp in a passport the officer shall write or stamp “canceled†across the face of the document.
(e) Replacement. When a B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC issued under the provisions of this section, or a BCC or B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC issued under any provisions of this section contained in the 22 CFR, parts 1 to 299, edition revised as of April 1, 1998, has been lost, mutilated, destroyed, or expired, the person to whom such card was issued may apply for a new B–1/B–2 Visa/BCC as provided in this section.
[64 FR 45163, Aug. 19, 1999, as amended at 71 FR 30591, May 30, 2006; 71 FR 34521, June 15, 2006; 73 FR 23068, Apr. 29, 2008]
Kinda shoots holes in your theory, doesn’t it!!
Evelyn
Sandra :
Evelyn,
It is not I who is defending ethnocentrics, it is you. I am not defending white people entering this country today illegally but you are defending “brown” people who do. Is you thinking really this twisted?
E
You obviously don’t know the meaning of ethnocentrism.
Ethnocentrism, the feeling that one’s group has a mode of living, values, and patterns of adaptation that are superior to those of other groups. It is coupled with a generalized contempt for members of other groups. Ethnocentrism may manifest itself in attitudes of superiority or sometimes hostility. Violence, discrimination, proselytizing.
~~~~~~~~~~
The people who were in line to enter this country have already entered. There is no more line after our allotment for the year has been reached. They don’t have the right to create their own line after that and to just crash the gates. It is our country and we have the right to set quotas for immigration. Crashing the gates does not give them the right to stay here just because they set down roots.
E
That is what Native Americans said, but no one listened to them. I guess in many ways those who dont like Hispanics are paying for the sins of their fourfathers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have not seen you provide any more credible statistics on illegal immigration than anyone elses in here. Much of it was mere opinion. In reading many of the topics in here I did notice a report by the U.S. government provided by a member call liquidmicro which is what I would tend to believe than anyone else’s research. Why won’t you accept what a government research has provided?
E
Thats fine, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. Just remember this. I dont debunk lies for the benefit of the ethnocentricsts like you.
I do it for the Americans who dont know what to believe about the immigration debate, by exposing the lies used to smear Hispanic immigrants, with credable truths from credable sites.
Americans can decide for themselves who is telling the truth and get a first hand look at the racism fueling this debate.
~~~~~~~~~~
I really don’t care what citizens did in other counries in regards to breaking their laws. This isn’t about citizens breaking our laws but illegal immigrants.
E
Tell me why you dont care about your forefathers breaking the law? Could it be that would make you seem unfair?
I mean if this Country was formed by a bunch of lawbreakers, and all those who hate Hispanics talking about “rule of law” ………..that would seem hypocritical. Scandalous even!
~~~~~~~~~~
In regards to population growth evidently you lack the knowledge to know what “carrying capacity” means in a country. There are many factors involved in determining that, not just land space. I don’t know why you would bring up Hispanics in that discussion because we all use the same amount of natural resouces and other critical resources in this country. A human is a human and we all make the same demands on the earth.
E
The immigrants in question are already here. So I dont see a point in talking about carrying capacity aka availability of food, water, sunlight, environmental conditions.
Those havent changed to a degree we should be alarmed at this moment, and if they do, maybe we can get some of the people who are not happy with diversity in this country to move away where they can be happy.
~~~~~~~~~~
As I said, my Hispanic neighbors are not being harrassed and are not living in fear. The media may talk about some incidents for sensationalism to create nees but as I said there is no rampant harrassment of Hispanic citizens in this country.
E
Well for all the American citizens who happen to be Hispanics that are stopped for no reason by cops in towns where racism is rampant (Hazelton Pa.) , for all the Hispanics who have had their homes raided in the middle of the night, for those beaten, killed, deported, harassed, jailed , hunted, suffered discrimination, sneered at, and called names, it is very real and very rampant.
The evidence is the fact that ACLU is kept busy suing the hell out of the violators and collecting millions upon millions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry, but I will not accept the violation of our immigration laws by the millions because or if our government’s foreign policies have failed. I would seek to fix them and so should you but it does not justify the above. Are you giving the Mexican government elite a pass in this mess?
E
You have already accepted it, they are already here. Your own Gov. forced you to accept it. They shoved it down your throat.
As long as you keep electing gov. Officials whose foreign policies suck and who steal other countries wealth.
You are accepting that down the line you will be responsible for the people of those countries.
Iraq is next, when they have to come OH BOY! They DO have citizens who are terrorists and DO HATE AMERICANS AND DO WANT YOU DEAD!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think we need to have a national I.D., mandate e-verify, provide benefits to only citizens and build a physical barrier. Terrorists have no interest in benefits or jobs. The physical barrier is to assist the Border Patrol and is a deterrant to illegal entry.
E
?????????And those who are here???????? Keep ignoring them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, you are wrong. KKKers are not part of the Minutemen group. They show up just like the reconquistas do to the pro-illegal rallies, uninvited.
E
I am not going to try to dissuade you on what you choose to believe or defend.
All I can say is that anyone can do research and find plenty of evidence to the contrary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Changing the constitution is not bastardizing it anymore than changing our immigration laws is bastardizing those laws. There is nothing in our Cosntitution that says you can’t change or alter an amendment through legislation.
E
You really need to take a course in civics. That is exactly what it is. No one messes with the Constitution to exclude a certain ethnicity. That is bastardizing what the constitution stands for. A law is easy to pass, scrap or change.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have read your posts Evelyn, you attack both the message and the messenger. You cannot deny that.
E
I only attack the messenger if the mes senger attacks me! When the messenger speaks harsher, so do I.
If they tone it down, so do I. Some times if their words are very harsh I turn the words against the poster. Believe me, I have had to learn the hard way. People who hate immigrants who are Hispanic are vicious. I am sure you have seen the posts.
Sandra
There is a fine line between ethnocentricism and racism. Your definition does not fit the majority of white Americans. They vie for national pride and soveirngty and its traditional culture and that doesn’t equate to a sense of superiority or ethnocentricism anymore than it does for Mexicans living in Mexico or any other citizens of other countries who want to preserver their national identities and cultures. This isn’t about race but national identity. Legal immigrants are welcomed and are for the most part not treated with hostility and disdain. That is just plain false. When “immigrants” don’t come legally, do you expect them to be welcomed with open arms? Of course not and there wil be justified hostility then.
Yes, we should learn from the past. Defend your country or it will be taken over by invaders. Good point, Evelyn! Bringing up a past that none of us alive today played a role in is ludicrous. Many of our ancestors came here after the U.S. was established as a country with borders anyway.
You keep bringing up a rampant hate against Hispanics in this country and that is just a flat out lie! As I said, my Hispanic-American neighbors are treated with respect. I don’t hate them. I think what you are doing is mixing up Hispanic-Americans with those who are here illegally in our country. They are two different groups. Anyone in this country illegally should expect to be treated with hostility!
In regards to population growth, haven’t you noticed that our natural resources are getting scarce, our energy costs soaring, the long waits at the doctor’s office and emergency rooms, our crowded schools, highways,etc. This all due to too many people in this country. It is predicted that our population will double in the not too distant future. Do you want to wait till we have a crisis on our hands before we do something about it? Why would you try to claim that this is all about not wanting diversity in this country? Another ridiculous statement on your part. We have always had diversity in this country! Wanting to protect this country’s natural resources and not wanting to live in overcrowded conditions does not mean one doesn’t like diversity. As I already said, we humans all use up what Mother Earth provided no matter what our skin color or ethnic group is. It is about what any given country’s carrying capacity is.
If any Hispanics have had their homes raided in the middle of the night, ICE has had reason to believe that there were illegal immigrants hiding in them. It is ICE’s job to seek our immigration violators.
Yes, our government has not secured our borders and they created this mess but that is one thing good about democracy we have the right to fight them over it now. We have NOT accepted it, nor will we. If we were accepting it, we wouldn’t be complaining then, would we? But we are! It has gotten out of control. Time to take action.
How is changing the 14th Amendment, only going to affect Hispanics? Those who already have citizenship will be able to keep their citizenship. It only means that in the future one parent will have to be a citizen in order for their infant to gain birthright citizenship. THAT MEANS ALL BABIES, NOT JUST THE HISPANIC ONES! Why would you make such a ridiculous remark?
I have read your remarks in many of these topics, Evelyn. Anytime someone didn’t agree with your points of view you called them a racist and other hateful names over and over and it was way before anyone called you the same first. They only defending themselves from your initial attacks on their character. You have attacked both the message and the messenger. When you should only attack the message. You obviously have an honesty problem denying what you yourself has posted.
I will be glad when this thread falls off the main page as I have no more desire to reply to you. I don’t wish to communicate with a dishonest person anymore.
Evelyn
Sandra said:
There is a fine line between ethnocentricism and racism. Your definition does not fit the majority of white Americans. They vie for national pride and soveirngty and its traditional culture and that doesn’t equate to a sense of superiority or ethnocentricism anymore than it does for Mexicans living in Mexico or any other citizens of other countries who want to preserver their national identities and cultures.
E
The definition of ethnocentrism was not mine. I got it from here.
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Ethnocentrist
~~~~~~~~~
This isn’t about race but national identity. Legal immigrants are welcomed and are for the most part not treated with hostility and disdain. That is just plain false. When “immigrants” don’t come legally, do you expect them to be welcomed with open arms? Of course not and there wil be justified hostility then.
E
This has everything to do with race. If it didnt you would be talking about German,
Canadian, Irish, English, Chinese, immigrants, not just Mexican immigrants
~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, we should learn from the past. Defend your country or it will be taken over by invaders. Good point, Evelyn!
E
WRONG! Haven’t you heard? WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!!!
HA! HA! HA! LOL!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bringing up a past that none of us alive today played a role in is ludicrous. Many of our ancestors came here after the U.S. was established as a country with borders anyway.
E
The fact that you and yours have been reaping the benefits of the sins of your fathers makes you as responsible as those who raped, killed and stold!
When you decide to return those benefits and make reparations for what you have destroyed and used, then maybe you deserve a break.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You keep bringing up a rampant hate against Hispanics in this country and that is just a flat out lie! As I said, my Hispanic-American neighbors are treated with respect. I don’t hate them. I think what you are doing is mixing up Hispanic-Americans with those who are here illegally in our country.
E
I dont say anything but can vouch for the fact that when I am out with Hispanic friends shopping or dinning we get treated different.
Here you can read about the many many documented instances of hate directed at Hispanics like I do.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/intrep.jsp
and here
http://www.adl.org/combating_hate/
There are many many more if you look.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
They are two different groups. Anyone in this country illegally should expect to be treated with hostility!
E
Boy what warped thinking you have of those who harvest the food you eat, clean up after you, build the houses you live in, pave the roads you drive on, care for your children and elderly, do your laundry, etc etc…..and you said there was no hate. LOL! imagine if there was? HA! HA!
~~~~~~~~
In regards to population growth, haven’t you noticed that our natural resources are getting scarce, our energy costs soaring, the long waits at the doctor’s office and emergency rooms, our crowded schools, highways,etc. This all due to too many people in this country. It is predicted that our population will double in the not too distant future. Do you want to wait till we have a crisis on our hands before we do something about it?
E
Didn’t I already say those of you that dont like living in a diverse country can move elsewhere. Where you can be happier! It must be hell for you harboring all this hostility for immigrants that you would blame your disregard for the environment and nature on them.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Why would you try to claim that this is all about not wanting diversity in this country? Another ridiculous statement on your part. We have always had diversity in this country! Wanting to protect this country’s natural resources and not wanting to live in overcrowded conditions does not mean one doesn’t like diversity. As I already said, we humans all use up what Mother Earth provided no matter what our skin color or ethnic group is. It is about what any given country’s carrying capacity is.
E
Then leave!!
~~~~~~~~~
If any Hispanics have had their homes raided in the middle of the night, ICE has had reason to believe that there were illegal immigrants hiding in them. It is ICE’s job to seek our immigration violators.
E
It is not their job to abuse or deport American citizens or legal residents, but they are embolden by all the hate you people direct at Hispanics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, our government has not secured our borders and they created this mess but that is one thing good about democracy we have the right to fight them over it now. We have NOT accepted it, nor will we. If we were accepting it, we wouldn’t be complaining then, would we? But we are! It has gotten out of control. Time to take action.
E
You are the gov. Take a citizenship class like the immigrants do, so you can learn these things!
The people in Washington represent you, you put them there with your vote. So if they did something you dont like it’s your fault.
Maybe if all of you weren’t watching American Idol instead of learning about government this Immigration fiasco wouldent have happened. To Late to complain now!
~~~~~~~~~~~
How is changing the 14th Amendment, only going to affect Hispanics? Those who already have citizenship will be able to keep their citizenship. It only means that in the future one parent will have to be a citizen in order for their infant to gain birthright citizenship. THAT MEANS ALL BABIES, NOT JUST THE HISPANIC ONES! Why would you make such a ridiculous remark?
E
FIRST OF ALL THIS IS WHAT I SAID,
You really need to take a course in civics. That is exactly what it is. No one messes with the Constitution to exclude a certain ethnicity. That is bastardizing what the constitution stands for. A law is easy to pass, scrap or change.
The only ridiculous remark here is yours???!!!
~~~~~~~~~~
I have read your remarks in many of these topics, Evelyn. Anytime someone didn’t agree with your points of view you called them a racist and other hateful names over and over and it was way before anyone called you the same first. They only defending themselves from your initial attacks on their character. You have attacked both the message and the messenger. When you should only attack the message. You obviously have an honesty problem denying what you yourself has posted.
E
That is a lie.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I will be glad when this thread falls off the main page as I have no more desire to reply to you. I don’t wish to communicate with a dishonest person anymore.
E
I never want to debate people who discriminate. To me racism is the worst thing on this earth. I never enjoy having to debunk all the lies associated with racism.
But if we are to rid ourselves of it, Truth is what can do it.
Believe me when I say I never wanted to engage you on this subject. But someone has to.
Sandra
As I said, the word ethnocentricism does not fit Americans who only want to retain the soveirgnty and traditional identity of this country. Ethnocentrics are those who are tribal in mentality and it borders on racism. This isn’t about racism, it is about national pride and it includes all Americans of every ethnic group who have assimilated into that national identity not just white people. I noticed you failed to address the fact that Mexicans in Mexico have the same goals for their traditional society and culture. Why is that? I only used Mexico as an example. I could have used any other country as an example so subsitute Germany then if you like. It is the same thing. I thought you were bright enough to figure that out. Evidently not.
What goes around, comes around? The Native Americans of THIS country are doing just fine and NO history doesn’t have to repeat itself if we take all steps to prevent it and we are! Bring yourself up to 2008, will you and get yourself out of the past. My ancestors committed no sins and we Americans have every right to reap the benefits of what they built in this country besides the fact that we were born here!
As I said, if there are any Hispanic citizens being treated with disdain in this country it is not rampant and they have the Mexican illegals south of our border to thank for that. They can join with the rest of America to fight illegal immigration rather than siding with the illegals and they will gain the respect they deserve.
I didn’t ask any illegal immigrants to harvest my food or clean my house. I have better scruples than that. I would only hire those legally in our country. If anyone chooses to do otherwise, don’t point the finger at me. I respect the laws of this country.
Is there something wrong with your reading comprehension? I said that population growth has nothing to do with diversity. Humans are humans no matter what ethnic group they are from. It is all about numbers, not race. For the third time, it doesn’t matter who you are, we all use the same amount of natural resources, etc. so we have to control our population growth.
ICE is not abusing Hispanic citizens. They aren’t even abusing illegal immigrants. They are doing a necessary job by enforcing our immigration laws. No citizen in this country has anything to fear because they are here legally. Why are you making this a Hispanic/race issue? Since Hispanics make up 80% of the illegal immigrant population of course they are the ones most likely to be targeted. Just how dumb are you?
How do you know who I vote for? I didn’t vote any of the bums into office that are open borders freaks! I will vote everytime for their opponents and try to get them out of office. You forget that many politicians make promises before they ar elected that they don’t keep either! How are we to know that in advance?
I asked you how is changing the 14th Amendment excluding a certain ethnic group? You failed to answer that question you only repeated that same lie all over again! Again, from that point FORWARD, and it wouldn’t include anyone who already has citizenship in this country, ANY CHILD OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP would have to have one parent who is a citizen for that child to gain instant birthright citizenship. You got it now or are you going to repeat the same old lie about exclusion again?
You truly are a pathological liar if you are going to continue to deny that you have instigated every insult to those who you don’t agree with in here. You have done it to me since I started posting in here. People have the right to defend themselves from your insults. Attack the messages, not the messengers!
I don’t discriminate against anyone because of race, ethnicticty or skin color who is here legally but we have the right to discriminate against those who violated our immigration laws regardless of their ethnic makeup. This viewpoint does not equate to racism. It is about expecting any human being to respect our immigration laws or they will get no respect from us either.
Evelyn
As I said, the word ethnocentricism does not fit Americans who only want to retain the soveirgnty and traditional identity of this country.
E
If we let the immigrants that have been here 5 yrs or more, who are well behaved become citizens, in what way are they going to keep Americans from retaining the sovereignty and traditional identity of this country?
~~~~~~~
This isn’t about racism, it is about national pride and it includes all Americans of every ethnic group who have assimilated into that national identity not just white people.
E
Several studies show that immigrants are assimilating as fast or faster then immigrants from Europe did.
You mention National pride and national identity along with assimilation. Can you explain what you mean by that? I dont see the connection.
Do you mean they are not assimilating fast enough?
Do you mean they are NOT assimilating?
???????? I am puzzled!!
Evelyn
You truly are a pathological liar if you are going to continue to deny that you have instigated every insult to those who you don’t agree with in here. You have done it to me since I started posting in here. People have the right to defend themselves from your insults. Attack the messages, not the messengers!
E
Go back to when I started posting here. Dec 07. See the truth!
Call me a pathological liar LOL!
What make you special? Why dont you follow what you ask of others?
Oh thats right, you think you’re special. HA! HA! HA! HA!
You say Hispanics arent affected by your discriminatory behavor and recrutment of others to do the same. Here educate yourself.
Immigration Backlash
Hate Crimes Against Latinos Flourish
By Brentin Mock
Intelligence Report
Winter 2007
Read the Hatewatch Blog
There’s no doubt that the tone of the raging national debate over immigration is growing uglier by the day. Once limited to hard-core white supremacists and a handful of border-state extremists, vicious public denunciations of undocumented brown-skinned immigrants are increasingly common among supposedly mainstream anti-immigration activists, radio hosts and politicians.
While their dehumanizing rhetoric typically stops short of openly sanctioning bloodshed, much of it implicitly encourages or even endorses violence by characterizing immigrants from Mexico and Central America as “invaders,” “criminal aliens” and “cockroaches.”
read more here
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=845
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amid Anti-Immigrant Fervor, ICE Deporting More American Citizens
By Jacqueline Stevens, The Nation. Posted June 10, 2008.
A headline in the San Francisco Chronicle screams, 900 Nabbed in State on Immigration Charges. The Seattle Times reports, Feds Combing Jails for Illegal Immigrants. An AP article declares, Immigration Raid in Iowa Largest Ever in US and reports 390 arrests. In 2007, more than 276,912 US residents were deported.
Thanks to a recent Bush Administration crackdown, the net cast by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency (ICE) is wide–so wide, it turns out, that some of those being deported are US citizens.
read more here
http://www.alternet.org/immigration/87467/
`
Evelyn
The Return of Native Americans as Immigrants
New America Media, Commentary, Louis E.V. Nevaer, Posted: Oct 24, 2007
The United States is seeing a resurgence of Native Americans in the form of immigrants who are descendents of North America’s indigenous populations. As Native Americans, they are terrifying precisely because they have a moral claim to cross the borders imposed on their lands, writes NAM contributor Louis E.V. Nevaer.
As the immigration debate rages throughout the nation, the lingering, but unspoken, fear is that illegal immigration from Mexico heralds the return of the Native American.
“The persistent inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two peoples, two cultures, and two languages,†Samuel Huntington famously argued in Foreign Affairs magazine in March 2004, unleashing a firestorm of protests among U.S. Hispanics and Latinos. “Unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves — from Los Angeles to Miami — and rejecting the Anglo-Protestant values that built the American dream.â€
In fact, almost all Mexican immigrants are descendents of North America’s indigenous peoples. As Native Americans, they are terrifying precisely because they have a moral claim to migrate throughout the nation-states imposed on their lands.
This vilification of immigrants differs from the same sentiment of earlier generations. Previously, Americans debated and settled immigration issues through legislation: the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 to keep French and Irish Catholics out, the anti-Papist sentiment that fueled Nativism in the 19th century aimed at Italian, Irish and German immigrants, the xenophobia that culminated in the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, and the “Gentlemen’s Agreement†of 1907 aimed at the Japanese.
In “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order,†Huntington argued that the Mexican state was complementary to the American one, both heirs of Europe and the Enlightenment. This suggests that the cultural conflict he fears is between Western versus Native American.
He is correct. Native Americans are indifferent to the Western values used to obliterate them, and he recognizes the moral authority with which they challenge the very concept of the nation-state.
To refuse entry to immigrants from across the oceans, from Europe or Asia, is one thing; to stand against the internal movements of Native American people, Americans find unsettling. They can’t forget that efforts to transplant and expand European civilization in the New World have been the driving force behind the settling of the West in the 19th century and the exclusion of Native Americans from the mainstream of society in the 20th.
It almost worked: There are no Manhattans on the island of Manhattan, no Coast Miwok in San Francisco.
“The only good Injun is a dead Injun,†is a line in a Hollywood Western that sums up the nation’s attitude during the 19th century, and it is true that Native Americans were massacred, subjected to forced migrations and deliberately infected with contagious diseases so as to reduce their numbers. It is also true that during the last century, the establishment of reservations created marginalized communities where alcoholism, substance abuse and unemployment demoralized Native Americans into early graves.
Now, peoples rendered almost irrelevant to American society are thriving in such large numbers that they are once again on the move across the continent.
The return of the Native American began in earnest in the 1980s, during the Sanctuary Movement in California. Suddenly, people apprehended at the borders spoke neither English nor Spanish. Isa Gucciardi, who managed a translation company in San Francisco, reported getting calls from the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), as it was called then, with requests for interpreters who spoke “Indian†languages from southern Mexico and Central America. “We had to double the rate, since it was so difficult to find anyone who spoke English and Tzotzil Maya,†she said.
Despite their best efforts to wipe them out, at the start of the 21st century, Zapotec, Mixtec, Maya and scores of other indigenous peoples have returned.
They are working in our restaurants, stocking shelves in our stores, building houses and doing our landscaping. They are taking care of our kids while we’re at the office, and giving birth to more Native Americans in our hospitals. They are fueling the economic expansion, contributing to a society that looks upon them with disdain.
Yet in the second half of 20th century, it was Europeans who looked on Americans with disdain. Walt Whitman celebrated America being one people out of many – “Of every hue and caste am I†– but to the Europeans, hyphenated Americans are mongrels and half-breeds: Irish-Americans, African-Americans, Italian-Americans, Anglo-Americans.
The realization that Native Americans are crossing the borders that crossed them is alarming even Jesse Jackson. Interviewed on CNN’s “Lou Dobbs Tonight,†he complained that the workers streaming into New Orleans were “outside workers,†since he could not bring himself to say “Native Americans from Latin America.â€
My office in New York is in the Citigroup Center where the only Native American used to be the “Manna-Hata†Indian on the seal stenciled on the flag of the City of New York, standing next to an early Dutch colonist.
Not anymore. Now when I go to the lobby and downstairs into the subway concourse that connects the Uptown Number 6 train with the E and V subways, there are Maya women, wearing their traditional textiles. Their babies strapped on their backs in shawls, with a blanket made of blue basket, they lay out before them for sale probably the last thing that is actually made in New York City: pirated DVDs of Hollywood movies.
Having rid ourselves of the Manna-Hata people, we import Native Americans from Mexico.
Sandra
Since Evelyn is adhering to the Marxist-based phoney “one peoples” philosophy in regards to the “indigenous,” then how about this: how about the Mexica Indios petition the U.S. Native Tribes to share in the revenues from their casinos? I mean, since they’re all “one people” and all, it shouldn’t be a problem, right? LOL!
Evelyn
BUMP
I was willing to answer all of your questions. I am only asking two. Please answer them.
Evelyn :
As I said, the word ethnocentricism does not fit Americans who only want to retain the soveirgnty and traditional identity of this country.
E
If we let the immigrants that have been here 5 yrs or more, who are well behaved become citizens, in what way are they going to keep Americans from retaining the sovereignty and traditional identity of this country?
~~~~~~~
This isn’t about racism, it is about national pride and it includes all Americans of every ethnic group who have assimilated into that national identity not just white people.
E
Several studies show that immigrants are assimilating as fast or faster then immigrants from Europe did.
You mention National pride and national identity along with assimilation. Can you explain what you mean by that? I dont see the connection.
Do you mean they are not assimilating fast enough?
Do you mean they are NOT assimilating?
???????? I am puzzled!!
Evelyn
Sandra said:
Since Evelyn is adhering to the Marxist-based phoney “one peoples” philosophy in regards to the “indigenous,”
E
Your “Marxist-based phony “one peoples” philosophy in regards to the “indigenous” is shot to hell by the views and remarks from all of my Native American brothers and sisters!
Below are the remarks of a few!
~~~~~~~~~~
then how about this: how about the Mexica Indios petition the U.S. Native Tribes to share in the revenues from their casinos? I mean, since they’re all “one people” and all, it shouldn’t be a problem, right? LOL!
E
Why should they, they all work. They aren’t asking anyone for a hand out, they are asking for the same opportunity given to your ancestors that you benifit from.
The same justice, the same equality and the same freedom which have been striped from them in their countries by our greedy foreign policies.
When the need to educate their children or emergency medical situation arises the taxes and SS taken from their paychecks from which they will never benefit cover those necessities and still leave monies for citizens to collect SS and disability benefits!
JUNE 19, 2006
WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE ANYWHERE ON THIS CONTINENT
Along the U.S.-Mexico border, the body count continues to pile up daily. Meanwhile, the Minutemen patrol the U.S.-Mexico border and shameless politicians find it easy to denounce illegal immigration as the cause of all the nation’s problems – including linking it withâ€the war on terror.â€Amidst all the clatter, the only views not being heard are the ones that matter most. Thus here, we bring you a truly historic column, featuring the views of those whose land we occupy: American Indians:
The immigration issues are many and are so very complex; however, we cannot have a productive dialogue about anything when we begin the conversation, thinking it is ‘us against them’ or when the truth’ is only half true or we only use rhetoric to back our claims. We can’t resolve any of these complex issues if we label our neighbor as an’immigrant and not as a relative, friend or human being.
Nadine Tafoya
Mescalero Apache -Salt River Pima -Maricopa
~
I feel that as Native Peoples of the Americas, we have the right to be anywhere on this continent as we have for generations. To hear people telling my relatives that they are ‘illegal aliens and criminals and to get out of our own land is very disturbing!
Maria Yellow Horse Brave Heart, PhDPresident/Director, The Takini Network
~
Indigenous peoples haven’t known any borders. Colonial borders are new. It’s ironic that essentially white men of privilege who created the category of white – that it is they who determine who gets permitted into our lands.
Winona LaDuke, founding director, White Earth Land Recovery Project
~
From the point of view of the laws of the indigenous nations of North America, the Europeans are the original illegal immigrants in the area of North America. The United States… has, for more than 200 years, methodically and militarily violated indigenous law, and even solemn treaties, in order to take over and occupy the vast majority of the lands of Indigenous nations and peoples.… it is hypocritical in the extreme for the people of the United States to now pretend that it is a paragon of virtue, and a country that has always conducted itself on the basis of the rule of law.
Indian Law Scholar, Steven Newcomb
~
The movement to try to force the Mexican people to learn the English language and the culture and traditions of America to stay in this country may not be totally successful. I can tell you from firsthand experience that when the federal government tried to strip me of my language and traditions, it did only a partial job, because of my resistance to being subdued. Today I am glad I have retained my culture, traditions and the Keres language, for that is where my heart and soul belong
Katherine Augustine – Laguna Pueblo, retired nurse
~
Too bad WE didn’t think of insisting that European arrivals speak OUR language. We’d all be speaking Ojibwemowin right now.
Patty Loew, Assoc. Prof., UW-Madison
~
In an important and emphatic way, the indigenous peoples of the Americas are reclaiming their continent, whether with the ballot, by boat, by air, or on foot. Let us call it repatriation on the march.
Shirley Hill Witt, Coauthor, El Indio Jesus
~
The white supremacists masquerading as patriots are building a fence at the southern border to keep out the brown people. Notice that they aren’t building a fence at the northern border… Recall too that the 9-11 terrorists were here legally, complete with freakin’ flyernumbers. I’m for all the Native people to have cross-border privileges up and down our hemisphere, and would close the borders against all the peoples from other places who look down on us.
Suzan Shown Harjo – Cheyenne & Hodulgee Muscogee – Director, Morning Star Institute
~
I suspect at least half those people coming across that southern border are indigenous peoples who have been directly or indirectly affected by anti-indigenous rights policies and U.S. lead neo-liberal free trade regimes often resulting in the privatization of land. I am concerned the U.S-Mexico border is becoming a war zone giving rise to old world colonial attitudes spawning white-lead vigilante militias with U.S. military support. Indigenous peoples of the U.S. and our tribal governments must demand border justice and not be used by the homeland security program of the U.S. to undermine the civil liberties of our indigenous peoples and mestizo brothers and sisters of the Latin American countries.
Tom Goldtooth, Executive Director, Indigenous Environmental Network
Eva Esparza
Thank you. I too will vote for Obama. With Iraq costing $300,000,000+ PER DAY while so many needs go unmet, there’s no way I would vote for McCain.
Evelyn
BUMP
I was willing to answer all of your questions. I am only asking two. Please answer them.
Evelyn :
As I said, the word ethnocentricism does not fit Americans who only want to retain the soveirgnty and traditional identity of this country.
E
If we let the immigrants that have been here 5 yrs or more, who are well behaved become citizens, in what way are they going to keep Americans from retaining the sovereignty and traditional identity of this country?
~~~~~~~
This isn’t about racism, it is about national pride and it includes all Americans of every ethnic group who have assimilated into that national identity not just white people.
E
Several studies show that immigrants are assimilating as fast or faster then immigrants from Europe did.
You mention National pride and national identity along with assimilation. Can you explain what you mean by that? I dont see the connection.
Do you mean they are not assimilating fast enough?
Do you mean they are NOT assimilating?
???????? I am puzzled!!
Sandra
Evelyn,
I have already stated my case based on U.S. immigration laws as they are written today. I have already answered every single one of your questons in my prior posts. You just want to beat a dead horse to death by spouting the same old nonsense based on events over 200 years ago. Mexican-Indians have no right to this part of the continent. American Indians indigenous to what is now U.S. territory have treaties with our government.
We have already been down the amnesty road in 1986 and all it did was to encourage more to come. I am not in favor of rewarding them no matter how long they have been here. It isn’t a racist position as you are implying because I don’t care what race they are, they need to go back to their homelands and wait in line. If there is no line for so many unskilled and uneducated well that is just tough. That doesn’t give them the right to make their own line through the desert and come anyway. We cannot retain our soverieghty that way and for every piece of data you provide that when immigrants come in large numbers from mostly one ethnic group that they are assimilating, I can provide just as much data to the contrary. They are colonizing rather than assimilating and with their high birthrates will become the majority ethnic group in a few short years. If you think that we are going to stay the same country culturally with this phenomonum, then I’d like to know what you are smoking. But that is probably not what you want anyway being the anglo hater that you are.
Amnesty would give Latinos an unfair quota in this country as they are the majority here illegally. Sorry, but that isn’t fair.
Evelyn
Sandra said:
Evelyn,
I have already stated my case based on U.S. immigration laws as they are written today. I have already answered every single one of your questons in my prior posts. You just want to beat a dead horse to death by spouting the same old nonsense based on events over 200 years ago. Mexican-Indians have no right to this part of the continent. American Indians indigenous to what is now U.S. territory have treaties with our government.
E
Is this suppose to be a joke! If it is, it is in bad taste!
Since 1787, over 750 land cessions have been authorized by supposed mutual compacts. History demonstrates there was little that was mutual about these “treaties.”
Each land cession was made “legal” by a simple piece of paper–a treaty.
To many Native Americans, however, selling the land was an alien concept. The land was elemental; it was as essential to life as air and could not be owned by anyone. To agree to “give up” all or even a percentage of the land seemed as absurd as selling the air.
Once the treaty was signed and the land was taken, the United States Government broke their side of the treaty. More than 500 of these “treaties” are still in litigation today because of this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We have already been down the amnesty road in 1986 and all it did was to encourage more to come.
E
Wrong! Treaties like NAFTA and the need for foreign labor are the reasons they come. Blaming Amnesty is an excuse conjured up by ethnocentrics.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am not in favor of rewarding them no matter how long they have been here. It isn’t a racist position as you are implying because I don’t care what race they are, they need to go back to their homelands and wait in line.
E
How hypocritical you would suggest that knowing that is not a solution to the immigration issue, because there is no line!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If there is no line for so many unskilled and uneducated well that is just tough.
E
What is tough is the fact that the immigrants are here to stay and you and all the others will have to get used to it! THAT IS TOUGH!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That doesn’t give them the right to make their own line through the desert and come anyway.
E
It didnt give your Ancestors that right either, but they did it anyway. Thousands of miles from their homelands, across the ocean, on another Continent.
They are still doing it today, that is what you should be protesting, instead of the people that feed you and clean up after you!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We cannot retain our soverieghty that way and for every piece of data you provide that when immigrants come in large numbers from mostly one ethnic group that they are assimilating, I can provide just as much data to the contrary.
E
Show me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They are colonizing rather than assimilating and with their high birthrates will become the majority ethnic group in a few short years.
If you think that we are going to stay the same country culturally with this phenomonum, then I’d like to know what you are smoking.
E
Wow you are a bigot. Your remarks reek of racism. That is what you should have said from the beginning. YOU DONT WANT THEM HERE BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR RACE IS BETTER!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But that is probably not what you want anyway being the anglo hater that you are.
E
I dont hate America, white people or people of any race or ethnicity. I hate racism. It is the reason so many people on this earth suffer. It is the reason you are afraid of Hispanics becoming the majority in the U.S.
Well let me tell you that even if all the immigrants here are deported, by 2046 whites will be the minority in the U.S.
You cant stop it, because 60% of American citizen children today are other then white.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amnesty would give Latinos an unfair quota in this country as they are the majority here illegally. Sorry, but that isn’t fair.
E
But having more white people is? WHY? Oh thats right, cause you think they are better cause you’re white!! ROTFLMAO!
OOOOoooooooo THAT’S SSSOOOooooooo Ethnocentric.
Thanks for showing your racism through your remarks, that was what I was after all along. I wanted to expose your motives for not wanting the Hispanic immigrants here! I wont be responding to your racism anymore.
Sandra
Evelyn,
Your posts are so full of lies about what I have said or implied that it borders on the bizarre! I see you do that with everyone in this blog who doesn’t agree with your views. You twist everything they say and call it racism. You are the racist Evelyn, pure and simple.
No matter how many times others in here including myself has told you that our ancestors came here AFTER the U.S. was established as a country with immigration laws you still say they came illegally. That is a lie!
No matter how many times myself and others have told you that we only want fair quotas of immigrants from many ethnic groups, you lie and say we want higher quotas for whites and think we are superior. That is a lie! How does a grown woman live with so many lies on her conscience?
You are still trying desperately to make the U.S. responsible for the Mexica indigenous. It simply won’t wash. No matter how you try to twist and turn and fabricate and obfuscate, it is not going to work!
The U.S. government HAS NO HISTORY with the indigenous of Mexico/Central/or South America. You bring up all of the treaties which the U.S. government has broken with the U.S. Native tribes. I am sure there is validity to those claims. But you just doesn’t get it, or more likely, refuses to give up on this notion. It doesn’t matter how many treaties were broken between the U.S. government and U.S. Native American tribes. As your own article stated, those treaties are in litigation. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE AZTECS, THE MIXTECS, THE TOLTECS, THE MAYANS, THE INCAS, OR ANY OTHER INDIGENOUS PEOPLES WHICH WERE COLONIZED BY SPAIN!!!
It simply is not going to work, Evelyn! Stop trying to make the U.S., in particular the citizens of the U.S. responsible for the indigenous south of the border. They are the responsibility of MEXICO, CENTRAL & SOUTH AMERICA. If they can’t get any results from their own governments, then they should address their grievances with the government of SPAIN AND PORTUGAL!
The U.S. government will continue to address issues with the U.S. Native Tribes IN OUR COUNTRY; the indigenous South of the border need to do the same with THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS.
Evelyn
Sandra said
We cannot retain our soverieghty that way and for every piece of data you provide that when immigrants come in large numbers from mostly one ethnic group that they are assimilating, I can provide just as much data to the contrary.
E
Show me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They are colonizing rather than assimilating and with their high birthrates will become the majority ethnic group in a few short years.
If you think that we are going to stay the same country culturally with this phenomonum, then I’d like to know what you are smoking.
E
Wow you are a bigot. Your remarks reek of racism. That is what you should have said from the beginning. YOU DONT WANT THEM HERE BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR RACE IS BETTER!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But that is probably not what you want anyway being the anglo hater that you are.
E
I dont hate America, white people or people of any race or ethnicity. I hate racism. It is the reason so many people on this earth suffer. It is the reason you are afraid of Hispanics becoming the majority in the U.S.
Well let me tell you that even if all the immigrants here are deported, by 2046 whites will be the minority in the U.S.
You cant stop it, because 60% of American citizen children today are other then white.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amnesty would give Latinos an unfair quota in this country as they are the majority here illegally. Sorry, but that isn’t fair.
E
But having more white people is? WHY? Oh thats right, cause you think they are better cause you’re white!! ROTFLMAO!
OOOOoooooooo THAT’S SSSOOOooooooo Ethnocentric.
Thanks for showing your racism through your remarks, that was what I was after all along. I wanted to expose your motives for not wanting the Hispanic immigrants here! I wont be responding to your racism anymore
Sandra
What a hypocritical liar you are, Evelyn! Do Mexicans think they are superior who live in Mexico just because they want to remain Mexican culturally and ethnically and not lose their national identity through an illegal invasion? Does that make them bigots? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, HYPOCRITE!
Your double standards for them make YOU the racist!
More of your lies is that I am looking for an all white country and that I have a problem with legal immigrants! I DON’T YOU LIAR, AND I NEVER SAID THAT EITHER!
Evelyn
Sandra said
We cannot retain our soverieghty that way and for every piece of data you provide that when immigrants come in large numbers from mostly one ethnic group that they are assimilating, I can provide just as much data to the contrary.
E
Show me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They are colonizing rather than assimilating and with their high birthrates will become the majority ethnic group in a few short years.
If you think that we are going to stay the same country culturally with this phenomonum, then I’d like to know what you are smoking.
E
Wow you are a bigot. Your remarks reek of racism. That is what you should have said from the beginning. YOU DONT WANT THEM HERE BECAUSE YOU THINK YOUR RACE IS BETTER!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But that is probably not what you want anyway being the anglo hater that you are.
E
I dont hate America, white people or people of any race or ethnicity. I hate racism. It is the reason so many people on this earth suffer. It is the reason you are afraid of Hispanics becoming the majority in the U.S.
Well let me tell you that even if all the immigrants here are deported, by 2046 whites will be the minority in the U.S.
You cant stop it, because 60% of American citizen children today are other then white.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Amnesty would give Latinos an unfair quota in this country as they are the majority here illegally. Sorry, but that isn’t fair.
E
But having more white people is? WHY? Oh thats right, cause you think they are better cause you’re white!! ROTFLMAO!
OOOOoooooooo THAT’S SSSOOOooooooo Ethnocentric.
Thanks for showing your racism through your remarks, that was what I was after all along. I wanted to expose your motives for not wanting the Hispanic immigrants here! I wont be responding to your racism anymore
Sandra
What a hypocritical liar you are, Evelyn! Do Mexicans think they are superior who live in Mexico just because they want to remain Mexican culturally and ethnically and not lose their national identity through an illegal invasion? Does that make them bigots? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, HYPOCRITE!
Your double standards for them make YOU the racist!
More of your lies is that I am looking for an all white country and that I have a problem with legal immigrants! I DON’T YOU LIAR, AND I NEVER SAID THAT EITHER!
I don’t believe that Latinos or Mexicans should get a highter quota for immigration than any other group. They should just be treated equally to any other ethnic group in our immigration policies and quotas. You obviously equate this to me not wanting any of them or a lesser number than any other group in this country? How did you manage to justify that lie in your idiotic head? I never said nor implied anything remotely like that!
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